Bob Blosl's Heritage Large Fowl Thread

[vebyrd36]

I might be new but you opened my eyes a few posts ago and I just wanted to say thank you. TOTALLY makes sense what you're saying in regard to lineage.

Very true. I cannot tell you how many times I have witness people almost come to blows over chickens lines. So I tell everyone always give credit to whom ever you have gotten stock from. Not saying it is not your own but is giving respect to the founder of your parent pair. At least that is what I have learned in 30 plus years. VIVI

 

[CluckyCharms]

I was able to attend one of the presentations Walt did this past Spring as well as getting to tag along while he was helping a friend choose her breeding stock. It is amazing how clear things become when you have a knowledgeable person patiently explaining why a bird should be kept or sent on its way. I had read through the SOP several times and the light bulbs weren't just going off, they were blowing up over my head as he went through the pens. I immediately went home and separated my Andalusian flock into keepers and "others" based on what I had learned that day. I still have a long way to go, but I was armed with my own visual and first-hand examples now vs. what I had read and been told. It has also given me a better perspective as I've read back through the SOP. I really appreciated the chance to get some advice in person. Thanks Walt!

I think that's such an awesome experience you had! Walt had me thinking about cookies since I keep getting cookies from him when I say something that makes sense or is factual (which isn't often). It got me thinking that chickens are the bakery - Walt and some others here are the bakers - and we are the excited little kids that come in every day to get a free cookie sample.

I think it is just so great that you had an opportunity like this, and I wish you lots of good things with your Andalusian flock! (no idea what those are, I will have to google now).

 

[buffalogal]

Clucky, it's *all* about traits. A trait is something like a wider head, tighter feathering, or a better tail set that is evident in most if not all of the birds from a breeder. An out of place eyelash or pinhead sized calcium deposit does not count. Your comments about Breeder A and Breeder B have nothing to do with what I wrote, which was clarifying whether or not producing chicks automatically means you have a "line". (IMHO, no, it does not)

It's very common to see someone breed purebred chickens for decades and still not have a line because the person setting up the breeding pens has no earthy idea how to select to retain quality, much less improve traits. (They're called hatcheries.)

 

[fowlman01]

My experience with the breeders at shows - let them know in advance that you would like to meet with them. I haven't met one yet that wasn't more than willing/eager to "show me around his birds" and discuss them at length - as long as he had some control over when that meeting might take place.

Ahahahahah....you are a good looking lady, so of course they are going to "show you around his birds"

There are very few exceptions...but most experienced poultry folk will be willing to help beginners......most love to talk about their birds. Early on I looked up the oldest guys I could find that were breed specialists. These were guys that didn't get beat in their classes....or not too often. Then I would contact them and ask if I could pick their minds about the breed they raised at the next show. No one ever refused to talk about his breed......back then there weren't too many women showing chickens. These guys were breed specialists, but most of them could do a fine job judging...especially in their class. A wealth of info! Just be respectful and as the Goddess says....it is a good idea to arrange something in advance. I know that style works with me.

Walt

 

[CluckyCharms]

Clucky, it's *all* about traits. A trait is something like a wider head, tighter feathering, or a better tail set that is evident in most if not all of the birds from a breeder. An out of place eyelash or pinhead sized calcium deposit does not count. Your comments about Breeder A and Breeder B have nothing to do with what I wrote, which was clarifying whether or not producing chicks automatically means you have a "line". (IMHO, no, it does not)

It's very common to see someone breed purebred chickens for decades and still not have a line because the person setting up the breeding pens has no earthy idea how to select to retain quality, much less improve traits. (They're called hatcheries.)

I totally respect that you're allowed an opinion (everyone is) and I just disagree - that's all. =) I never said you were wrong...I simply disagree with your perspective is all.

According to *you* an out of place eyelash doesn't count, but according to Susie Q Breeder it might be a cull in her opinion.

I think what I said had everything to do with clarifying why a chick is or is not in someone's line...but, I completely agree to disagree, as I feel your opinion just like everyone else's - is worth something on this forum.

 

[imtrying]

i don't think the issue is giving credit - it's the alluded perception that your potential customers are buying birds from x. they're not. a great example would be the influx of marans. i often see marans eggs, or chicks, for sale from "jeane" or "davis" lines (or presley, etc, etc). a simple search on ebay will give you more than one saying this.

the alluded point is the customer is getting a bird of substance from one of those lines. it simply isn't true. and it's insulting, in my opinion, to the original breeder.

"jeane" and "davis" lines were awesome due to more than just sticking a roo in with a few hens. there was a process. they are not a part of your process and that should be made clear. most likely, i would not get the same results if i were to buy a marans from ebay than if i got one direclty from davis.

there is no question people use the names of others to sell their eggs, birds, etc. there may be sincere belief they are selling quality, but that doesn't make it ok.

again, in my opinion.

 

[Chris09]

Very true. I cannot tell you how many times I have witness people almost come to blows over chickens lines. So I tell everyone always give credit to whom ever you have gotten stock from. Not saying it is not your own but is giving respect to the founder of your parent pair. At least that is what I have learned in 30 plus years. VIVI

The problem I see with that advice is that there are way too many people out there that are trying to make a name or a quick buck for there self off of someone else's stock/name.
The line is who did the breeding the strain would be whom ever you got the original birds from. (If the original birds all came from the same breeder)

Chris

 

[buffalogal]

Don't take this the wrong way but, how many times have you breed a pair of birds and there offspring looked identical to there parents?
There will always be something different the parent stock and there chicks.



Since you picked the birds to bred you are starting a new line that is yours, the offspring has nothing to do with the original breeders line anymore except for being out of his stock.

Chris

Identical? Never. Worse? Occasionally. Better? Many, many, many times, because I specifically selected *for* something I wanted to see improved when I set up the breeding pen, and culled the offspring based on how well they showed the desired outcome. The point is, I am breeding toward my goal of the perfect bird based on my interpretation of the SoP. (the one that exists only in my mind)

I understand what you are saying about someone making the false claim they have "So and So's "line". I've gotten into some tedious online discussions with a man who mistakenly claims he is keeping several "lines" of birds from long dead breeders. I pointed out to him that once he started choosing which birds were going to be kept as breeders, he no longer has the other man's "line", only birds descended from them. My comment was addressing what it takes to create a "line" in the first place.

Again, it is mho that simply putting birds together and producing even purebred chicks does not make a "line".

 

[vebyrd36]

The problem I see with that advice is that there are way too many people out there that are trying to make a name or a quick buck for there self off of someone else's stock/name.
The line is who did the breeding the strain would be whom ever you got the original birds from. (If the original birds all came from the same breeder)

Chris

You are correct it is one line, But many time as such my birds have been out crossed, and the parent stock from many years is unknown. Do know they came from the Caeolina's from my Great Grandfather, VIVI

 

[thedragonlady]

x2!!

Exactly what I was trying to say so many times yesterday (on another thread) and I got absolutely nowhere.

I completely agree. I don't see where a bad breeding could happen with a breeding inside a trio that came from excellent lines though - so if you'd care to expound on that I would be very appreciative.

[Edited to add] I thought about what you said regarding "even with a trio"...do you mean breeding that trio and then not knowing which chicks from that breeding were culls and which were not, and keeping the wrong ones to continue your program with...due to being inexperienced or being experienced and not caring (or anything in between)? That makes sense...(to me anyway) but again I'm noob so I don't know for sure.

thanks in advance for any clarification.

[Editing again] The more I think about that the more I think wow. I'm sure that happens all the time. Breeder B buys a trio from Breeder A, and breeds only that trio. But, they hatch a few chicks and one of them is a cull according to Breeder A's standards, but breeder B doesn't realize that (or does, but doesn't care) and places that potential cull from Breeder A's birds into their breeding program. That cull is **not** from the lines of Breeder A, because Breeder A would have selectively culled that particular chick and it would not have been in their breeding program.

Line (lineage) -

1. Lineal descent from an ancestor; ancestry or pedigree.
2. A sequence of species each of which is considered to have evolved from its predecessor: "the chimpanzee and gorilla lineages".

It would stand to reason that Breeder B's chick from Breeder A's trio is no longer Breeder A's line, because there would be no descent from that chick if Breeder A would have hatched it, because it would have been a cull.

I now think that a line stops the moment Breeder A transfers ownership of those birds or hatching eggs to Breeder B.....I think...not sure....I don't know.

The moment a breeder sells a trio to someone, the new owner becomes responsible for it. If the trio is not fed, and conditioned properly, the birds will be unrecognizable as being bred by the original breeder. Unless the chicks from the trio are raised properly, the same will be true, even if the original breeder picked out the trio, and sold it as a breeding trio . This is where a lot of novices make a big mistake in not following the breeder's feeding and conditioning program. It makes a HUGE difference.

If you know what you are doing, you can sometimes get birds who have not been optimally raised and conditioned, breed them right, and end up with very nice birds.Those become your birds. It takes about 20, or so years, to get to the point of being able to figure that out though, and you'll have to feed a lot of culls if you are wrong.