Breeding coturnix quail color questions

[sylviethecochin]

Also, chicken genes still confuse the heck out of me so now I know who to run to.

The quail color calculator I found to be about 75% correct, 25% incorrect (when compared to what research studies have to say about the genetic mechanisms), and visually confusing, so I haven't been able to use it much as a resource personally.

BUT I also have a mind for punnet squares, so it's not a big hindrance. If anyone is going to use it I would say use it only for one gene at a time and just do some follow-up research to see if what you find is consistent. It's definitely sometimes right! That's just somehow even less helpful than always being wrong .

I had it in my mind to do an updated version a while back, and quickly realized it would be impossible, so kudos to the original creator for getting that far!

Don't run to me. Go to Nicalandia, Sneebsey, or the Moonshiner. I'm good on the basics, and understanding why the basics work, but some of the gene interactions are beyond me since I don't have a ton of colour-gene variety in my flock and haven't seen the results firsthand.

 

[Quailguy728]

Hey, i dont want to jack your thread, but I was having trouble IDing this fella, and @CoturnixComplex mentioned mutations (in post 5) of the gold gene which can end up being bad for the pool. Was wondering if he could just touch on that a bit more. Like is there any way to avoid the dominant lethal genes? And what is a "lethal chick"?

I think I've pinned this guy as a gold speckled Itialian crossed with wild. Should i refrain from incubating eggs from these half golden looking guys?

(1 month old around today or tomorrow) i only have 1 other like this and the rest are more of a wild or pharaoh color. (And much easier to sex) again sorry for the thread jack, but its like 80% to do with what coturnix complex had mentioned .
This may be useful slightly more specific information that could help others though. (I hope it does)

Excellent thread though! Was very insightful for me. Thanks gang!

 

[CoturnixComplex]

Oh he's a weird dude! I don't really have a name for that color (like a lot of them), but he's pretty. Probably a unique creation. Hard to tell in that lighting but looks like there's a lot more smokey grey mixed in than with most goldens.

So, basically, there are like 4 or more different really similar but slightly different looking and acting genes at the same place (referred to as the golden loci collectively). The technical names for them are all fawn-1, fawn-2, fawn-3, etc so they can be a bit hard to match up with the common names like italian, manchurian, etc. Birds can also be a mix of multiple of the genes, but can only have 2 alleles total. So they can be homozygous italian, homozygous manchurian, or split/heterozygous to both or either, but never homozygous for both because they're in the same location and there's no room.

All are dominant genes (meaning that birds only need one copy to express the color), and some are homozygous lethal, meaning that when birds have two copies, they actually fail to develop or hatch, or die shortly after birth/have health problems.

That's why it's always a good idea to pair golden-type birds with non-golden-type birds. You get just as many colored offspring from the pair (50% on average) without the 25% that would die when they inherited the gene from both parents if you set that up to be a possibility.

(The same is true with silver/blue birds, that's why some places say "best when bred to non-silvers")

 

[Quailguy728]

So, basically, there are like 4 or more different really similar but slightly different looking and acting genes at the same place (referred to as the golden loci collectively). The technical names for them are all fawn-1, fawn-2, fawn-3, etc so they can be a bit hard to match up with the common names like italian, manchurian, etc. Birds can also be a mix of multiple of the genes, but can only have 2 alleles total. So they can be homozygous italian, homozygous manchurian, or split/heterozygous to both or either, but never homozygous for both because they're in the same location and there's no room.

All are dominant genes (meaning that birds only need one copy to express the color), and some are homozygous lethal, meaning that when birds have two copies, they actually fail to develop or hatch, or die shortly after birth/have health problems.

That's why it's always a good idea to pair golden-type birds with non-golden-type birds. You get just as many colored offspring from the pair (50% on average) without the 25% that would die when they inherited the gene from both parents if you set that up to be a possibility.

(The same is true with silver/blue birds, that's why some places say "best when bred to non-silvers")

Thanks! That is much more comprehensive than anything I've read online. And thats a good rule of thumb for pairing!

 

[CoturnixComplex]

Thanks! That is much more comprehensive than anything I've read online. And thats a good rule of thumb for pairing!

Yay! I get it wrong sometimes so always feel free to correct me but generally what I'm saying is coming from reading 4-5 studies/sources on each gene and then attempting to take the best "average" of the conflicting information. Sometimes it's silly stuffy, like when I couldn't figure out if the "golden" gene was lethal or not when I got started. It made sense there was conflicting info; there are 4+ "golden" genes and some are lethal and some aren't! Everyone was right and wrong! But it took a LOT of digging to get to the actual genetic research that confirmed that.

 

[Himham]

Hey, i dont want to jack your thread, but I was having trouble IDing this fella, and @CoturnixComplex mentioned mutations (in post 5) of the gold gene which can end up being bad for the pool. Was wondering if he could just touch on that a bit more. Like is there any way to avoid the dominant lethal genes? And what is a "lethal chick"?

I think I've pinned this guy as a gold speckled Itialian crossed with wild. Should i refrain from incubating eggs from these half golden looking guys?

(1 month old around today or tomorrow) i only have 1 other like this and the rest are more of a wild or pharaoh color. (And much easier to sex) again sorry for the thread jack, but its like 80% to do with what coturnix complex had mentioned .
This may be useful slightly more specific information that could help others though. (I hope it does)
View attachment 1716447 View attachment 1716448

Excellent thread though! Was very insightful for me. Thanks gang!

I’ve got one that looks very similar to yours. I thought at first that it was a golden male, but turned out to be female. I haven’t had any luck identifying the colour either.

I have been trying to figure out how to put my colour groupings together, and I’ve been told it’s fine to put golds together, but now maybe I’ll make sure to split them up. So if I put an Italian roo with brown hens, I’ll end up with some browns and some Italians? I’m realizing that my ability to understand genetics is pretty lousy...haha

 

[Himham]

Sorry, my post somehow ended up being added to the quoted post. I guess it’s not just my understanding of genetics that is lacking...

Here’s the girl I was talking about

And I may have fixed it!

 

[CoturnixComplex]

Yes, ha, half of everyone will tell you it's fine and half will tell you not to do it for reasons mentioned above. No telling which actual genes they're carrying, and some are lethal, and some aren't!

That said, crossing golden to wild-type should always give you around 50% goldens, so no reason not to split them up to be on the safe side.

If you were going to cross golden to golden, I would try to cross, say, an italian female with a manchurian male, just because it's a little more likely each of their mutation is caused by a different gene and you couldn't end up with two copies of a lethal (theoretically).

 

[CoturnixComplex]

Sorry, my post somehow ended up being added to the quoted post. I guess it’s not just my understanding of genetics that is lacking...

Here’s the girl I was talking about

And I may have fixed it!

You know, she almost looks like my falb-fees but with a bunch of extra orange! Beautiful!

Are you sure it's a girl? I believe it but that big white creamy chest is deceiving. Makes you want to think it's a feather-sexable pattern.

 

[Himham]

You know, she almost looks like my falb-fees but with a bunch of extra orange! Beautiful!

Are you sure it's a girl? I believe it but that big white creamy chest is deceiving. Makes you want to think it's a feather-sexable pattern.

I’m sure she’s a girl. At first I thought boy because of the lack of spots, so I threw her in the boy pen, and quickly realized my mistake! Poor girl! Haha
And she has these crazy feathers sticking up on her back that I thought would eventually go normal, but they never did.