Breeding for Red Pyle

[magdelaine]

Recessive white sometimes can be leaky. I've had the occasional onewith brown on face and upper front neck.. not sure how much it would extend as they are naked necks, lol... btw mine are on black and eb (patridge/dark brown).

Those are not red pyles though, as it is specifically dominant white on wild type.

Not sure if it;s possible but that is an interesting thought, breeding for birds with pyle looks using recessive white instead of dominant white. Nobody has done that as far as I know.

btw for the first time in my experience there's a recessive white hen(both of her parents were solid black) with random black markings on random feathers. If I had not bred her, would have assumed her to be a leaky dominant white.. the black markings are not stable, they change pattern and show on different feathers between molt. I don't know what to make of that as I have not heard or seen of other examples like this.

Now back to your birds- the results are very clear in crosses between a white and a colored bird without dominant white. If a white crossed with say a black, produces blacks it is a recessive white. If they produce whites it is dominant white(need to keep in mind the possibility the cross bird is a recessive white carrier...)

If that pullet was from parents without white, she is recessive white and she simply happens to be one of the few RW that leak color.

Dominant white and recessive white are not alleles, which means they are different genes on different chromosome locations, so there is nothing to stop a bird from being both dominant white and recessive white. In fact it's not so rare to find recessive white in dominant white lines as it helps crispen the white coloring...

Recessive white can pop up from colored birds, dominant white never can do this. Sometimes people get surprised by crossing say a red sex link with a black chicken and get mostly white chicks.. that is not a surprise pop up as the rsl shows dominant white on their tails and necks..

There's an exception though.. some solid buff chickens have dominant white. It's used to cover up any little black flecks the bird might have- white is less visible than black flecks. A perfectly solid buff chicken is one of the hardest things to accomplish as the genetics are so complicated. It can also soften the buff coloring some.

Kev, since my first post I found an article that explains that there IS a recessive white that is leaky is just the way my pullet is. There is also a cockerel from that breeding that has very light apricot across his shoulders that I also believe is a "leaky" recessive. Interesting stuff! The breeder that developed the Red Pyles in my incubator used pullets like mine to start her project, and she says she crosses her Pyles with recessive whites to get the ticking out of the white on her cocks, so apparently it is helpful? The whole thing makes me very curious.

I know that with OEGB Red Pyles that they will often keep two lines, one for breeding properly colored males and one for breeding properly colored females, because you need different parents to get the "right" results.

One more week until hatch day for my Red Pyles.

 

[magdelaine]

My pretty pullet with the red beard. That EE Turken sitting behind those two came from a Turken hen that is white with red leakage crossed with an Ameraucana of mixed coloring (blue with silver leakage, plus some wildtype thrown in). From her I know her dam is dominant white.

 

[Kev]

Kev, since my first post I found an article that explains that there IS a recessive white that is leaky is just the way my pullet is. There is also a cockerel from that breeding that has very light apricot across his shoulders that I also believe is a "leaky" recessive. Interesting stuff! The breeder that developed the Red Pyles in my incubator used pullets like mine to start her project, and she says she crosses her Pyles with recessive whites to get the ticking out of the white on her cocks, so apparently it is helpful? The whole thing makes me very curious.

I know that with OEGB Red Pyles that they will often keep two lines, one for breeding properly colored males and one for breeding properly colored females, because you need different parents to get the "right" results.

One more week until hatch day for my Red Pyles.

what article is that?

using recessive white for pyles does not make sense to me right now. That would be saying it affects only the black pigments yet leaving the red/gold unaffected. or is the claim the red pyles(with dominant white) split for recessive white clears out the ticking?

Separate cock or hen lines OR hen/cock versus cockerel/pullet lines are because the standard makes it impossible for a single line to throw correct markings in both sexes. other cases are age related due to the trait changing over time like mottle- the spots increase in age.. so to match the standard, some lines are bred to hit the right mottle sizes early on.. OR hit the right size as adults.. in the end they are likely to eventually get spots way too big for the show standard.

I don;t know about the pyle standard so I can;t comment on it... I'm aware that in pencilled varieties, the standard calls for markings on the hens that correlate to brown areas on the rooster's breasts. The standard calls for clean black breasts.. which correlates to poorer pencilling on the hens. Pretty much a no-win situation, the response was to simply create separate cock and hen lines.

 

[Kev]

My pretty pullet with the red beard. That EE Turken sitting behind those two came from a Turken hen that is white with red leakage crossed with an Ameraucana of mixed coloring (blue with silver leakage, plus some wildtype thrown in). From her I know her dam is dominant white.

The turken hen looks more like a possible wheaten with Co plus silver and blue. I don;t see any strong hint of dominant white? Is her tail mostly blue?

pretty birds btw.

 

[Kev]

Full sisters. Mother partridge(eb) from stock with no recessive white, father dominant white, solid black underneath(cornish x).

none of the pullets show any gold leakage. Cockerels did eventually show red on the wing bow area. Thinking maybe the rooster was E (much less leakage).

 

[magdelaine]

what article is that?

I think you will find this interesting: http://brianreederbreeder.blogspot.com/

 

[magdelaine]

The turken hen looks more like a possible wheaten with Co plus silver and blue. I don;t see any strong hint of dominant white? Is her tail mostly blue?

pretty birds btw.

Oh I didn't think about Co.I figured it was leaky dominant white. You could be right! And thanks.

 

[Kev]

I think you will find this interesting: http://brianreederbreeder.blogspot.com/

Thanks for the link!

Hm, will have to digest that. Okimoto is awesome and very reliable source of information. I'd have been slightly skeptical except for the part where it says Okimoto sequenced and found this second white. If Okimoto says it, then it is So.

Still digesting but I am still puzzled by the claim of recessive white helping with red pyle though? If I understood(and must say I've only read that part once and am so tired right now, forgive any mistakes..) Reeder seems to say this white still covers up the basic gold color- as in a normal/wild type red duckwing still would be all white. Most of what leaks through is the autosomal red.. (?) again if I understood that right, it is not possible to create the full red pyle pattern using either of the recessive whites. The pictures on that page show mostly white cocks with the leakage mainly on the hens.

 

[magdelaine]

Thanks for the link!

Hm, will have to digest that. Okimoto is awesome and very reliable source of information. I'd have been slightly skeptical except for the part where it says Okimoto sequenced and found this second white. If Okimoto says it, then it is So.

Still digesting but I am still puzzled by the claim of recessive white helping with red pyle though? If I understood(and must say I've only read that part once and am so tired right now, forgive any mistakes..) Reeder seems to say this white still covers up the basic gold color- as in a normal/wild type red duckwing still would be all white. Most of what leaks through is the autosomal red.. (?) again if I understood that right, it is not possible to create the full red pyle pattern using either of the recessive whites. The pictures on that page show mostly white cocks with the leakage mainly on the hens.

Oh I agree! I find the idea that recessive white was involved difficult to understand. However, with Ameraucanas, the path to various color varieties is not necessarily a straight one. Perhaps some dominant white got mixed in there somewhere and that's how this color was accomplished.

 

[Kev]

Oh I agree! I find the idea that recessive white was involved difficult to understand. However, with Ameraucanas, the path to various color varieties is not necessarily a straight one. Perhaps some dominant white got mixed in there somewhere and that's how this color was accomplished.

glad I'm not the only one, ha!

unfortunately sometimes the given information is not quite correct but one should not be closed off to new information...

It is hard to tell sometimes because white leaking red usually is dominant white but it does leak on some recessive whites, like a white hen with buff on breast, it is impossible to tell by looking which one it is. However a rooster with dark red on back or wing bow, that definitely is dominant white.