Breeding Program Mind Map

[Amer]

if i understand this correctly - when you turn off mottling or just choose 1 mottling gene the bird physically is just white.

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1 or 0 copies Mo/mo
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so at least for the calculator, there needs to be a mottling expression to get the white dom bird with spots.

Ok that is a calculator flaw
There should be no mottling, het. white should show some spots (or mottling shouldn't show any. For consistency.)

 

[NatJ]

if i understand this correctly - when you turn off mottling or just choose 1 mottling gene the bird physically is just white.

View attachment 3937807

1 or 0 copies Mo/mo
View attachment 3937808

so at least for the calculator, there needs to be a mottling expression to get the white dom bird with spots.

I do not understand why the calculator does that. When people are breeding paints, they often have a black bird (E/E) with one dominant white gene (I/i+) and no mottling (Mo+/Mo+) and they do get birds with black spots. So it is definitely possible to get black spots on a chicken that has dominant white but no mottling gene.

So if OPs spotty birds are based on dominant white, there would be no reason to select mottled in the calculator, right?

If the birds are known to have the mottling gene, then of course it needs to be put in the calculator to correctly predict what genes the offspring will have.

But if the genes are just a guess, based on what the birds look like, I would probably assume no mottling gene until proven otherwise.

 

[tolmema]

I do not understand why the calculator does that. When people are breeding paints, they often have a black bird (E/E) with one dominant white gene (I/i+) and no mottling (Mo+/Mo+) and they do get birds with black spots. So it is definitely possible to get black spots on a chicken that has dominant white but no mottling gene.

ok thank you for clarifying that. i was having a really hard time understanding where the paint spots actually came from.

i'm still not sure how to input correctly into the calculator. if i understand what you are saying, i should be turning off the mottling gene and it would just be the white chicken (I/i+), even though it has spots?



i bred a lavender ameraucana to an austra-white EE (white dom chicken with some black spots), which produced basically a carbon copy white chicken black spot lav split baby. i was really surprised by this as i thought that a lavender rooster would only produce black lav splits, or white lav splits with a white dom hen.


my goal with this paint chicken is to produce an I/I for zombies.

 

[tolmema]

ok thank you for clarifying that. i was having a really hard time understanding where the paint spots actually came from.

i'm still not sure how to input correctly into the calculator. if i understand what you are saying, i should be turning off the mottling gene and it would just be the white chicken (I/i+), even though it has spots?



i bred a lavender ameraucana to an austra-white EE (white dom chicken with some black spots), which produced basically a carbon copy white chicken black spot lav split baby. i was really surprised by this as i thought that a lavender rooster would only produce black lav splits, or white lav splits with a white dom hen.


my goal with this paint chicken is to produce an I/I for zombies.

actually i just realized something. so if this is a paint bird then paint x lavender (black) = black and paint babies. so that makes total sense.

i've been banging my head against the wall trying to figure this out. i read online that only silkies have "paint", but isn't that what a zombie is? a white dom + fibro combo?

 

[Amer]

actually i just realized something. so if this is a paint bird then paint x lavender (black) = black and paint babies. so that makes total sense.

i've been banging my head against the wall trying to figure this out. i read online that only silkies have "paint", but isn't that what a zombie is? a white dom + fibro combo?

Yeah, there are a lot of zombies that are paint. And "ermine" Ameraucanas are paint. And Erminettes.

 

[NatJ]

actually i just realized something. so if this is a paint bird then paint x lavender (black) = black and paint babies. so that makes total sense.

Yes, I think that is what you have.

i've been banging my head against the wall trying to figure this out. i read online that only silkies have "paint"

I can't think why someone would say that, unless Silkies were the first breed to start calling it "paint" and the person was writing before that color was being developed in other breeds as well.

Here is an article about someone working on Paint Ameraucanas:
https://www.backyardchickens.com/articles/paint-ameraucana-project.51043/
The article is more than 10 years old, and I don't know whether they continued the project or dropped it, but it is one example of someone working with Paint color in a breed that is not Silkie.

but isn't that what a zombie is? a white dom + fibro combo?

I think that is what Zombies are, but I don't think Paints need the fibro at all (unless their breed calls for it, like Silkies do.)

 

[NatJ]

ok thank you for clarifying that. i was having a really hard time understanding where the paint spots actually came from.

i'm still not sure how to input correctly into the calculator. if i understand what you are saying, i should be turning off the mottling gene and it would just be the white chicken (I/i+), even though it has spots?

Yes, that would be correct.

The calculator is modeling dominant white as turning all black into white, even though it is known to be leaky when the chicken has just one copy of the gene (allowing black to show in places). The leakiness is what you want in a paint bird, but would be considered a flaw in a bird that is supposed to be all white.

So the calculator probably should show black spots on the I/i+ bird, even though it does not.

 

[tolmema]

Yeah, there are a lot of zombies that are paint. And "ermine" Ameraucanas are paint. And Erminettes.

thank you for confirming that! ermines/erminettes are so beautiful!

 

[tolmema]

Yes, I think that is what you have.


I can't think why someone would say that, unless Silkies were the first breed to start calling it "paint" and the person was writing before that color was being developed in other breeds as well.

Here is an article about someone working on Paint Ameraucanas:
https://www.backyardchickens.com/articles/paint-ameraucana-project.51043/
The article is more than 10 years old, and I don't know whether they continued the project or dropped it, but it is one example of someone working with Paint color in a breed that is not Silkie.


I think that is what Zombies are, but I don't think Paints need the fibro at all (unless their breed calls for it, like Silkies do.)

i think that a lot of info online is just bad LOL. i think the ppl who say that only silkies can have paint are purebreeders or don't work with anything outside of silkies.

you're right in that there actually is a lot of content online about paint birds - they're just called other things like Ermines or Erminettes which I would have never been able to find on my own.


i think my original issue was that i didn't realize my bird was a paint, i thought it was a white dom mottled bird.

Yes, I think that is what you have.


I can't think why someone would say that, unless Silkies were the first breed to start calling it "paint" and the person was writing before that color was being developed in other breeds as well.

Here is an article about someone working on Paint Ameraucanas:
https://www.backyardchickens.com/articles/paint-ameraucana-project.51043/
The article is more than 10 years old, and I don't know whether they continued the project or dropped it, but it is one example of someone working with Paint color in a breed that is not Silkie.


I think that is what Zombies are, but I don't think Paints need the fibro at all (unless their breed calls for it, like Silkies do.)

yeah, i was finding a lot of paint content but it was rather new - but now that i understand paint exists outside of silkies things make so much more sense about my bird in question.

originally i thought she was an austra white, but those birds lay white/cream eggs. but she came from a blue egg and will lay a blue egg, so she may be an Ameraucana/Leghorn mix?

 

[tolmema]

Yes, that would be correct.

The calculator is modeling dominant white as turning all black into white, even though it is known to be leaky when the chicken has just one copy of the gene (allowing black to show in places). The leakiness is what you want in a paint bird, but would be considered a flaw in a bird that is supposed to be all white.

So the calculator probably should show black spots on the I/i+ bird, even though it does not.

ok great. thank you so much for clarifying this. i am in the process of updating my little graphic to swap out mottling for paint.

i don't think any other birds in my program have the mottling gene so i'll remove those strays as well.