Can I Use Flock Raiser Long Term?

[Patinas]

Thanks everyone! Now that I know I can give them starter/grower type feed long term, that opens the option of using organic feed. I have searched high and low for an organic feed that isn't loaded with calcium and I've only found one and it is a starter/grower. It may be cost prohibitive over the long haul but hopefully the egg money will support the costs.

The other reason I was asking is because I read a blog post on author Lisa Steele's site stating that Flock Raiser is only for meat birds due to the high protein content (20% I believe). It talked about how it will make your pet/laying chickens fat. I've also read posts against using All Flock if you only have chickens. So much different information and opinions out there! Makes it tough to figure out what to do but I trust the experience and knowledge of the BYC community!

 

[Patinas]

Fermenting feed is so easy even a five-year old could do it. Simply cover the dry feed with water, add a little bit of ACV to kick start it, stir twice a day, and leave in a warm place with no drafts.

Using filtered water will help the ferment proceed at a much faster pace. You may adjust the consistency at any time by either adding more water for a thinner texture or adding more dry feed for a thicker one.

I like my FF the consistency of biscuit dough. Too much liquid in the FF can cause runny poop and everyone hates runny poop.

Thanks! Like I said, I don't yet understand the benefits of fermented feed but I'll check into it and consider that option for a long term solution.

 

[azygous]

https://permaculturenews.org/2016/06/20/cut-your-chickens-feed-bill-by-fermenting/

 

[Ridgerunner]

You get all kinds of different opinions, and that's what moist of it is, opinion. If you read enough posts on here you will find that different people do all kinds of different things. Some people like to cram all the protein in their chickens that they can. If you are raising birds for show a high protein diet is probably required. There is some reasoning behind some of it. But you'll find that most of the time our chickens do really well on a high or low protein diet, anywhere from 16% to 20% protein. In my opinion you need to be relatively consistent, they tend to get used to one or the other.

Since yours forage for at least some of their food, you don't have micro-control any way. The amount of protein is not how much is in one bite, it's how many total grams of protein they eat in a day. And even then one day isn't that important, it's how much they average over several days. With yours foraging their average daily protein is probably lower than you would expect.

 

[Patinas]

You get all kinds of different opinions, and that's what moist of it is, opinion. If you read enough posts on here you will find that different people do all kinds of different things. Some people like to cram all the protein in their chickens that they can. If you are raising birds for show a high protein diet is probably required. There is some reasoning behind some of it. But you'll find that most of the time our chickens do really well on a high or low protein diet, anywhere from 16% to 20% protein. In my opinion you need to be relatively consistent, they tend to get used to one or the other.

Since yours forage for at least some of their food, you don't have micro-control any way. The amount of protein is not how much is in one bite, it's how many total grams of protein they eat in a day. And even then one day isn't that important, it's how much they average over several days. With yours foraging their average daily protein is probably lower than you would expect.

Thanks, that's what I was thinking in terms of the protein load since mine forage almost every day; that the higher level in grower/starter would probably be fine long term since that's not the only food available to them 24/7. I do make them a treat tray daily which consists of a small amount of scratch, some meal worms and then mostly veggies like broccoli, lettuce type greens, some fruit if I have it on hand and recently I've discovered they love cherry tomatoes! I've not yet given them any type of protein in the form of meat or eggs. I figure they get that from the bugs and worms I see them finding from time to time.

 

[Egghead_Jr]

20% is not "high" in protein. Some fuss over a wee percent here or there but generally speaking you should only worry about extreme low levels and extreme high levels. 20% is not high at all. For those that supplement excessive amounts of treats low in protein they should be using higher level feed ration. That said some should use higher than 20% because they can't help themselves to stop throwing cracked corn and bread down because it makes the birds so happy. There are feeds up to 30% protein specifically made for supplementing 20-30% of diet with scratch grains. Then there is the low end of spectrum and inexpensive 15% protein layer feeds which are meant for layers and as a sole ration, nothing else fed.

 

[EggSighted4Life]

Thanks everyone! Now that I know I can give them starter/grower type feed long term, that opens the option of using organic feed. I have searched high and low for an organic feed that isn't loaded with calcium and I've only found one and it is a starter/grower. It may be cost prohibitive over the long haul but hopefully the egg money will support the costs.

The other reason I was asking is because I read a blog post on author Lisa Steele's site stating that Flock Raiser is only for meat birds due to the high protein content (20% I believe). It talked about how it will make your pet/laying chickens fat. I've also read posts against using All Flock if you only have chickens. So much different information and opinions out there! Makes it tough to figure out what to do but I trust the experience and knowledge of the BYC community!

Hi.

I use Purina Flock Raiser all year long for my mixed age/gender flock, OS free choice on the side. I think you are on the right track!

Let me clarify about flock raiser being for meat birds... Many layers ARE meat birds. If they are dual purpose birds like Barred Rock or Marans. They require a bit more protein than the lighter bodied breeds like Leghorn. And really when we talk about protein we are actually talking about the amino acids they contain. Here is a link showing feed requirements. (there is 1 misprint that says 5% and should be 15%) Note at the bottom it does state that birds not in lay should not be fed layer. Too much calcium OR protein *can* cause (2 types of) gout and/or kidney failure (doesn't mean will)... But the protein would need to be in the 30% plus range. Many show breeders actually feed gamebird feed that is 25-28% protein because it gives them nicer, shinier feathers... feathers are made from 90% protein.
http://ucanr.edu/sites/poultry/files/186894.pdf

All good answers already.
It's true I haven't found organic flock raiser, so I think you would have to go with a starter like you said. I don't see it as a problem and have considered it, but not affordable for me. IF you think it's too much protein long term, then you could cut it with some organic grains like oats or barley, (maybe corn). If you do go organic then you should be charging more for your eggs. Seems to me like chickens should eat less feed if it's higher protein since they eat to meet their energy (meaning calorie not nutrient) need and I would think protein has more calories than the OS that is *usually* in there instead.

All flock/flock raiser/starter/grower... different names, the only thing that matters is nutrients so read the tag because they may not have what you expect. Mostly boils down to protein and calcium for me, but I ALSO like to read the ingredients and pick the best sounding. Vagueness is not my friend!

I'm not harping on you... but I also do ferment. The difference that made me stick with it was the reduction in how bad the poo stinks, especially in the brooder! In addition to that I do save about 10% on my feed bill (not the 30% claimed by some). Since I have 60 ish birds that is significant. However, I keep it as simple as feed, water, stir, wait 3-4 days (depends on temps) and feed out (no acv needed). It *might* take the birds a couple of introductions since they are creatures of habit. But once they make the connection they will be all over it. I have talked with several nutritionist and dietitians and ALL agree there are benefits to fermenting. So if you have enough birds or the time to consider it, maybe check out the link in my signature line. It does take a few minutes each day verses some people leave their dry feed in auto feeder bins. I don't do that because I can't afford to feed all the wildlife... so I already feed enough to last all day in the morning and I put it up at night. I only feed FF and free range on pasture. i found if I fed several times per day, they were excited to see me and thinking it's treat like so they would pig out every time, which didn't help my feed bill. But now they just hit the feeder up when they want. But still if I grab a handful and start dropping it, they go crazy like treats. But since that's all they get, if I want I can take out feed pellets and drop them... letting them think they are getting a treat and give them a LITTLE something to scratch for, and it isn't going to throw off their nutritional balance and cause any health or behavioral issues as is the case for people who feed out TOO MUCH un-nutritious "scratch" which *usually* has about 8% protein.

Regarding chickens getting fat... that may be a personal opinion of hers and I wish people would speak from experience. NONE of my birds are overweight for their breed standard and all have been eating the 20% protein since hatch, 1.5 years now. Yes, it MAY have some effect as I have read reports that... in broiler breeds, specifically Cornish Cross... feeding a lower protein diet starting early on DID indeed improve their fertility and longevity... But those birds are an atrocity IMO, and bred specifically to gain weight. None of the heritage breed cockerels we processed had extra weight or subcutaneous fat. Alternatively, Metzer Farms where I just got my ducklings and a trusted source for me, also state on their site that they improve their fertility BY controlling their ducks' weight during the growing period.

Don't forget to shop around... I pay $3.45 less per bag at 1 store than the other for the SAME feed!

Hope this helps.

 

[GC-Raptor]

I have also read that if protein is too low in a feed, to support their needs, they will eat more of it, thus consuming more carbohydrates. And we know what happens if we consume too much in carbohydrates. GC

 

[chickengeorgeto]

Thanks everyone! Now that I know I can give them starter/grower type feed long term, that opens the option of using organic feed. I have searched high and low for an organic feed that isn't loaded with calcium and I've only found one and it is a starter/grower. It may be cost prohibitive over the long haul but hopefully the egg money will support the costs.

The other reason I was asking is because I read a blog post on author Lisa Steele's site stating that Flock Raiser is only for meat birds due to the high protein content (20% I believe). It talked about how it will make your pet/laying chickens fat. I've also read posts against using All Flock if you only have chickens. So much different information and opinions out there! Makes it tough to figure out what to do but I trust the experience and knowledge of the BYC community!

Too much protein in a laying hens' diet is like too much calcium in a roosters' diet. Most broiler-frying type chickens are fed a 22% protein ration. Do remember that excess protein will result in bad smelling manure or manure with a high ammonia content because the excess protein is expelled in the manure. As for the calcium content of laying pellets, they are anywhere from 2 to about 4 percent calcium.

Fermenting feed is a very good way to cultivate anaerobic (in the absence of oxygen) bacteria. This will result in Botulism which is a very, very, deadly disease.
When I was in training in Maryland the teacher said that if you dipped your forefinger in pure Botulism toxin and let it dry that you would have enough botulism toxin on your finger to kill 100,000 humans if they only touched your forefinger with their tongues.
That said, there are large die offs of ducks and other waterfowl every year from feeding in ponds etc where feed has laid for too long on the bottom. I sometimes wonder how many chickens die from Botulism but Mareks Disease takes the blame.

Also if the carbohydrate content of your chicken feed is too low your poultry will consume a greater amount of a high protein food and convert this food into energy.

 

[GC-Raptor]

I myself like 18% protein for laying hens. Remember eggs have protein. They get that protein from the feed the hens eat. Which is why a rooster need less. GC