Cornish Thread

[al6517]

Walt : I had the pearl Eye discussion with Gerald Blakely several times and he was instrumental in trying to get that pettition passed through last year about getting pearl changed to light red. I have never had a problem with having and keeping a ton of pearl eyed birds. But those that can't get them do in fact want the SOP changed for their benefit, and your right I didn't buy his story about ground conditions cause we live 20 miles apart LOL. Now in the deal regarding judging many tend to overlook the eye seeing as how the deduction is minimal compared to other bigger faults, not having a pearl eye is no more a fault than a broken or missing primary. If the judges see 20 red eyed birds and one pearl the pearl will not have any more recognition, regionaly speaking.

I do get sick and tired of folks crossing the fire out of Good Cornish or trying to reinvent the wheel, it is what it is and more folks will do that cause it's easier than breeding good true birds Cornish and these newer to cornish idiots think they know what the deal is from some book on genetics or another idiot who told them some Ole wifes tale about crossings and the BYC is famous for attracting the posers, those who wear those shoes know of whom I speak. It's one thing to say you don't wanna show or what anybody else thinks of your birds, and the simple fact is they couldn't get into the parking lot of a real poultry excibition, so that is clear. Cross when you have the birds to develop a project and keep your good stuff pure............... those of you who can't keep birds alive for longer than it takes to shave a teenage boy will soon realize this, and then you will have to once again go to begging for mediocre stock at bargin basement prices. All I am saying is cross when you have the extra's and don't expect to gain respect in Cornish when you are putting yourselfs out there as something totaly different to make a buck off of the scrapes you produce.

You speak of good cornishmen not wanting to sell or get birds out there to those wanting to start in the breed............................ not true at all ......those of us who know better don't want good birds falling into the hands of people who don't have a clue and don't want to do anything but cross them in hopes of creating whatever it is they think they can..................... I ain't wasting good birds on you people who will ruin or not even be able to raise them properly............ then sell your crap from using their good name on the line.................... who do you think your fooling here.

You think you want respect in the Cornish world .............. then go get it............. don't talk about it............ go get it with real recognition from real cornish people............. in the real cornish community. Walt is absolutely correct about what he was trying to say earlier on and those who whish you could know him & Bob as I do should hang on his every word regarding Cornish. I do appologize for this abrupt insertion of reality but enough is enough, let's get on the right track here for the breed not for what you Carnies want to peddle, do it right and you'll be rewarded.................. jack around and we will see right through you for what it is your doing. Be a Cornishman not a wanna-be, spend the time, do the work and earn the respect the old fashion way. I have said enough, and I am sure the poser will want to interject their version in their defense.

 

[fowlman01]

I agree with your post Al. I have found Cornish people to be very generous with their birds. They are not into giving them to people they don't think will not do right by them though. We have given away tons of good birds and yes, we have sold them too. We sold a DK bantam cockerel at a national meet before the judging. I sold it to a Canadian (Joe Mazur) for really not much money. he was unsure of the bird and kept asking me if it was any good. Told him we don't come to lose and it was entered in our name.......when it won champ AOCCL I thought he was going to kiss me...when they picked it for national Champion Chicken and Best in Show I got out of there cuz I don't want to be kissed by some Canadian dude. I thought he was going to keel over. lol


The eye thing was rejected by both the ABA and APA ....if it has been that way for over 100 years why change it now because someone can't get a pearl eye. It is a two point deduction in a show which is hardly anything. There are however some judges who have in their mind..."it ain't a Cornish unless it has pearl eyes". That is poor judging and most of those guys have died of old age. You would not believe all the calls I got trying to sweet talk me into supporting the change. 100+ years with the current description...was it wrong all that time?...I don't think so. If you can't do it raise quail or something where no one cares what color the eye is.

Bottom line is that there are very good real Cornish around and the people that have them are not trying to make a buck selling them. They don't sell hatching eggs or chicks because they are breeders, not a hatchery or a shyster trying to turn a buck. Lurkers should be very suspicious of anyone selling hatching eggs from "show quality Cornish".

Thanks for posting Al. maybe we can get this thread back on track.

Walt

 

[heritagehabitatfarms]

Very nice Al

Walt : I had the pearl Eye discussion with Gerald Blakely several times and he was instrumental in trying to get that pettition passed through last year about getting pearl changed to light red. I have never had a problem with having and keeping a ton of pearl eyed birds. But those that can't get them do in fact want the SOP changed for their benefit, and your right I didn't buy his story about ground conditions cause we live 20 miles apart LOL. Now in the deal regarding judging many tend to overlook the eye seeing as how the deduction is minimal compared to other bigger faults, not having a pearl eye is no more a fault than a broken or missing primary. If the judges see 20 red eyed birds and one pearl the pearl will not have any more recognition, regionaly speaking.

I do get sick and tired of folks crossing the fire out of Good Cornish or trying to reinvent the wheel, it is what it is and more folks will do that cause it's easier than breeding good true birds Cornish and these newer to cornish idiots think they know what the deal is from some book on genetics or another idiot who told them some Ole wifes tale about crossings and the BYC is famous for attracting the posers, those who wear those shoes know of whom I speak. It's one thing to say you don't wanna show or what anybody else thinks of your birds, and the simple fact is they couldn't get into the parking lot of a real poultry excibition, so that is clear. Cross when you have the birds to develop a project and keep your good stuff pure............... those of you who can't keep birds alive for longer than it takes to shave a teenage boy will soon realize this, and then you will have to once again go to begging for mediocre stock at bargin basement prices. All I am saying is cross when you have the extra's and don't expect to gain respect in Cornish when you are putting yourselfs out there as something totaly different to make a buck off of the scrapes you produce.

You speak of good cornishmen not wanting to sell or get birds out there to those wanting to start in the breed............................ not true at all ......those of us who know better don't want good birds falling into the hands of people who don't have a clue and don't want to do anything but cross them in hopes of creating whatever it is they think they can..................... I ain't wasting good birds on you people who will ruin or not even be able to raise them properly............ then sell your crap from using their good name on the line.................... who do you think your fooling here.

You think you want respect in the Cornish world .............. then go get it............. don't talk about it............ go get it with real recognition from real cornish people............. in the real cornish community. Walt is absolutely correct about what he was trying to say earlier on and those who whish you could know him & Bob as I do should hang on his every word regarding Cornish. I do appologize for this abrupt insertion of reality but enough is enough, let's get on the right track here for the breed not for what you Carnies want to peddle, do it right and you'll be rewarded.................. jack around and we will see right through you for what it is your doing. Be a Cornishman not a wanna-be, spend the time, do the work and earn the respect the old fashion way. I have said enough, and I am sure the poser will want to interject their version in their defense.

 

[Minniechickmama]

Walt : I had the pearl Eye discussion with Gerald Blakely several times and he was instrumental in trying to get that pettition passed through last year about getting pearl changed to light red. I have never had a problem with having and keeping a ton of pearl eyed birds. But those that can't get them do in fact want the SOP changed for their benefit, and your right I didn't buy his story about ground conditions cause we live 20 miles apart LOL. Now in the deal regarding judging many tend to overlook the eye seeing as how the deduction is minimal compared to other bigger faults, not having a pearl eye is no more a fault than a broken or missing primary. If the judges see 20 red eyed birds and one pearl the pearl will not have any more recognition, regionaly speaking.

I do get sick and tired of folks crossing the fire out of Good Cornish or trying to reinvent the wheel, it is what it is and more folks will do that cause it's easier than breeding good true birds Cornish and these newer to cornish idiots think they know what the deal is from some book on genetics or another idiot who told them some Ole wifes tale about crossings and the BYC is famous for attracting the posers, those who wear those shoes know of whom I speak. It's one thing to say you don't wanna show or what anybody else thinks of your birds, and the simple fact is they couldn't get into the parking lot of a real poultry excibition, so that is clear. Cross when you have the birds to develop a project and keep your good stuff pure............... those of you who can't keep birds alive for longer than it takes to shave a teenage boy will soon realize this, and then you will have to once again go to begging for mediocre stock at bargin basement prices. All I am saying is cross when you have the extra's and don't expect to gain respect in Cornish when you are putting yourselfs out there as something totaly different to make a buck off of the scrapes you produce.

You speak of good cornishmen not wanting to sell or get birds out there to those wanting to start in the breed............................ not true at all ......those of us who know better don't want good birds falling into the hands of people who don't have a clue and don't want to do anything but cross them in hopes of creating whatever it is they think they can..................... I ain't wasting good birds on you people who will ruin or not even be able to raise them properly............ then sell your crap from using their good name on the line.................... who do you think your fooling here.

You think you want respect in the Cornish world .............. then go get it............. don't talk about it............ go get it with real recognition from real cornish people............. in the real cornish community. Walt is absolutely correct about what he was trying to say earlier on and those who whish you could know him & Bob as I do should hang on his every word regarding Cornish. I do appologize for this abrupt insertion of reality but enough is enough, let's get on the right track here for the breed not for what you Carnies want to peddle, do it right and you'll be rewarded.................. jack around and we will see right through you for what it is your doing. Be a Cornishman not a wanna-be, spend the time, do the work and earn the respect the old fashion way. I have said enough, and I am sure the poser will want to interject their version in their defense.

X2 and still spitting on the same ground together. I hope you had a good summer with the birds this year and that things will cool down soon for you folks in the middle of the country.

 

[SD_Paulo]

Now in the deal regarding judging many tend to overlook the eye seeing as how the deduction is minimal compared to other bigger faults, not having a pearl eye is no more a fault than a broken or missing primary. If the judges see 20 red eyed birds and one pearl the pearl will not have any more recognition, regionaly speaking.

Hello Al,

I one post to you get to the crux of my dilemma. By line of questioning you will see that I have not been involved in any shows, as of yet. We are planning, in the next few years, to become more involved.

Anyway, my dilemma or issue with the judging (Walt please do not take offense) is that if there are 20 birds, all basically identical and one has pearl eye. I feel that the pearl eye should carry more weight than a missing primary. Especially, along side it's identical counterparts. It's a distinguishing and key trait. I believe it's a more fundamental trait than a mishandled bird missing a feather.

I feel this is the key reason, many breeders have cared less about eye color"! I don't see why it doesn't carry as much weight as lacing, etc. Well, now I guess it talking about changing the standard. I'll just go back to my Orientals games now.

 

[fowlman01]

Hello Al,
I one post to you get to the crux of my dilemma. By line of questioning you will see that I have not been involved in any shows, as of yet. We are planning, in the next few years, to become more involved.
Anyway, my dilemma or issue with the judging (Walt please do not take offense) is that if there are 20 birds, all basically identical and one has pearl eye. I feel that the pearl eye should carry more weight than a missing primary. Especially, along side it's identical counterparts. It's a distinguishing and key trait. I believe it's a more fundamental trait than a mishandled bird missing a feather.
I feel this is the key reason, many breeders have cared less about eye color"! I don't see why it doesn't carry as much weight as lacing, etc. Well, now I guess it talking about changing the standard.

I'll just go back to my Orientals games now.

As a judge I will say this. I might end up with two maybe three birds that are close in a show. They used to have classes of 90-100 dark bantam pullets in shows like Columbus in the 80's and early 90's. Once you start taking these birds apart it is surprising how different they really are. You see that in your own flocks. I do body first, then head, etc etc until you get down to the 5 you are going to place. Then the eye color could come into play. The reality is that if a Cornish has a broken wing feather it is not going to make the cut in a huge class. Bob Jones placed second to Henry Mager at a show in Columbus with a broken primary and that is the only time I have ever seen a bird go that high with a broken feather anywhere. That was a class of 90 pullets and that shows how good the bird was. Henry had best AOCCL with his pullet that was in pristine condition...as Henry's birds always are...Judges use comparison as a judging technique now, most of them don't know how many points are deducted for faults...

Walt

 

[al6517]

Sadly eye color has been a very heated debate for years and I suspect it to continue for many more to come, I for one am tickled to death when I see a good true pearl eye. All of my whites have them and just a few Darks and WLR's, but for many who have never had it and continue to breed without disregard for it only serves to perpetuate the affair.

It is funny that you mention that about selling hatching eggs Walt................ and your so right. I have never ever seen Good cornish eggs shipped, it's not something a good breeder would do and makes no sense whatsoever to do so. However you will see a few of the newby's to cornish here selling and shipping hatching eggs from their cross wares called cornish, and don't bat an eye. Why you ask is it not a good idea to sell hatching eggs??. For one they don't ship well and can be very fragile in the mail and the USPS can be very unkind to Cornish eggs. But more importantly good Cornish have to have about 40 thing other breeds do not, Cornish aren't leghorns or RIR's easily bred, culling is a often used tool in a cornishmans arsenal, not giving them away or selling the culls I mean out of the system culling. and for that reason it is important to not ship hatching eggs, because the more unscrupulious people will keep those culls and pawn them off to others as is being done by some here for the almighty dollar. I will only sell adult live young birds and yes will also ship them but you dang sure know what your getting before it get's sent and they may not be cheap. Some here know we don't sell hatching eggs and they have filled that niche with their trash to the unknowing and think they are getting away with it LOL.

A trio or two does not make a cornish breeder as some here have professed, I have put hundreds on the ground this year and perhaps only a very select few will make the grade to the breeder pen's, as it should be and no less. Carnival stand Cornish folks can sell hatching eggs here and tell the world they are great birds, but you will never see their birds in a cage with an exhibitors tag on it, they know they can talk them up here without actualy having to prove themselfs or their birds and those people are fine with that. If your not an ICBA member you will never know the truly great bird we share and how we work to improve it. I just hope those who are engaged in this type of unscrupulious behavior and they know who they are cease and desist, for others have caught on to their antics and the word is being spread.

Now perhaps the thread can move in a more positive direction with a little integrity and Welcome Walt's knowledge of the breed and the technics it takes to be a good steward of the breed.

AL

 

[Cedarknob]

Welcome back Al.

I do agree with much of what you said, though not particularly the way you say it. There is no way you can make me feel worse than I felt over losing a pen of chicks and a pen of adult Cornish. I also think you might be nursing a grudge about me questioning some posts you've made that I thought gave dead opposite information.to some you had posted earlier, and do not know if that is the reason you posted so often about my loss; or also if your post that I was selling Cornish to 4Hers to show in the meat bird class was due to a grudge or if you just have poor reading comprehension, but as you know that really got under my skin.

I know when you got started with quality Cornish, the struggles you have had getting them to reproduce over the past three years, and admire you for making some progress with them. I know about the show results of the Shawnee Nationals, exactly how many LF Cornish were shown there, what was shown there, and where yours stood when judged with them. You did really well there with some good Cornish and I was told that those that did beat yours were pretty good birds too.

Like you, I've done some crosses with my Cornish, in fact I bought my first two Cornish cockerels just for crossing, but then fell in love with the breed. I don't know why you did your crosses, just that you quit that project [last year or the year before?] and you are concentrated on pure Cornish now. Good for you. I may give mine up also and just keep LF Cornish, but I went into this season with 3 hens, 5 pullets, and two cockerels of DC that I chose to breed with. I bought the WC last fall, and whether you like or approve of it, picked what I felt were my 3 best bodied, and they were also largest, DC to put under him. I had also originally planned to try him on white pullets from Big Medicine's project. The one you saw a picture of and said would serve me well to get me started had feather stubs on her legs. You said if I lost her you would come beat lumps on my head or something like that, well I culled them rather than use them or sell them to anyone. I bought three pullets that were supposed to be pure bred [if they were they were very poor ones, and they are now culled also]. My white male was easily able to keep fertility near 100% on the 3 whites, 3 DC, and couple of project hens. With 2 DC to use over the 5 others, I was easily able to put project hens under them also. I did not set very many of the blue eggs from the Cornish pens, I set too many pure Ameraucana, and Ameraucana crossed to CX, eggs and when I realized I had messed up offered a few pure Cornish eggs to sell. I do not regret selling them, hope they hatched, and that a newbie falls in love with the breed. I also gave some pure Cornish eggs to a friend of mine dealing with an aggressive cancer that he is fighting, and all he wanted them for was to see how pure Cornish taste. I don't care if you do not like that either, and I actually had room to set them, but felt like giving him some..

I once posted pictures of birds you purchased to breed with last year, and some you yourself had produced and was holding as prospective breeders, took the pictures down, and then thought tonight about putting them up again. I'm not going to do it, but will say that I like the birds I bought and used, or bred myself and keeping, better. I may be wrong of course.

I am giving up my Ameraucanas. I can't afford the time and feed for the two varieties [three if you count the B/B/S that I kept but did not breed this year] and try to do justice to my Cornish. I'm keeping my project for now, but they may have to go also. I will probably go into next season with only 3 DC hens, a pullet or two, and two cockerels. I'm still evaluating what whites, or those carrying white, are going to be kept. Unless Aviengems wants a couple of offspring from the bird he sold me, those not kept are going in my freezer I remember you saying you sent that one cockerel I posted the picture of awhile back to someone local, but I've got some I like better than those and they carry enough meat to make a pretty good looking bird to put on a table.

edit: I will not ask you to share details of the secret project to start getting white Cornish chicks from your birds involved [mentioned here in post 100 to refresh your memory https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/316007/red-laced-cornish-x-and-project-talk-pics-p-8/90 ], but you sure figured things out to get both your first two white cornish chicks plus some cornish crosses hatched later in 2010 [mentioned here in post 178 if you forgot https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/316007/red-laced-cornish-x-and-project-talk-pics-p-8/170 ] To go from those two chicks to 100s on the ground in two years was quite an achievement, and I congratulate you. I know I will never get that done.

 

[Cedarknob]

Am I correct in calling these yellow rather than pearl?

 

[al6517]

Yes definitly yellow or what is called light red.