Cream Legbar Hybrid Thread

[ChicKat]

Hi

I've got a little white hen with the odd black fleck that I bought at auction described as an Araucana..... I'm in the UK so she has a tail and tufts...... but she lays little ivory eggs. She runs with my cream legbar cockerel.

Anyway, she managed to sneakily stash 14 of her eggs in a little nest up in the rafters and hatched all 14. 12 were black and 2 were white. Sadly one of the black ones died at 4 weeks old but the remainder are doing well. The black ones have all developed barring and the white ones are like their mother, having yellow legs and the odd tiny spot of black. Almost all have tufts (moustaches I call them) and a couple of the dark ones have a slight crest. (I wish I had some means of taking and posting photos, but I'm a technology dinosaur.)

Anyway, judging by their combs (they are 9 weeks now) I appear to have 5 or 6 males and of course they are much more friendly than the pullets. I was supposed to be steeling my heart to processing the males for meat but they are intent on sweet talking me out of it at the moment!.
I'm curious to know if the pullets will lay blue eggs? I did read somewhere on this thread that the blue egg laying gene passes down from the male, so I'm hoping hansom Harry, my cream legbar dad will have passed on that trait to them, even though their mother doesn't lay blue eggs.

My gut instinct is that Tasha isn't a pure Araucana, but I don't know enough about the breed to make that judgement. She's certainly flighty and quirky and broody and a brilliant mother with lots of natural instinct.

My first brood is certainly giving me a lot of pleasure and I now have a silky cross that appears to be going broody too. I'm intending to select the eggs that she sits on. I plan to give her some pure exchequer leghorn eggs and some pure cream legbar eggs, but I also have a RIR and a Blue Haze running with the legbar cockerel and wondered if anyone would recommend these hybrids and if the roo passes on the blue egg laying gene, would an RIR hybrid pullet from this be an olive egger?

Thanks in advance

Barbara

Hi Barbara,

In your case, the Cream Legbar rooster (since he has the blue egg gene) will pass it to the pullets. Either parent can/will pass the blue egg gene to offspring. Since the blue egg gene is dominant, then your pullets, if your Cream Legbar rooster carries two blue egg genes, will lay blue eggs. In future generations, you may have this set of chicks that carry a blue egg gene and the gene from your Araucana mother hen.... so they could pass either one to their chicks. Did you know that in the USA Araucana lay blue eggs?

Depending upon how much pigment is in the ivory egg from your Tasha, you may get greenish-blue from her daughters.

Interesting story! Sounds like you have a bunch of smart chickens in your flock.

 

[rebrascora]

Hi

Many thanks for your reply.

Yes, here in the UK too, the Araucana should lay blue eggs and was sold as such, but it's always a bit of a lottery at auction. I was disappointed that her eggs weren't coloured but I already have cream legbars which lay blue, so it wasn't like I was deaperate for my first blue egg or anything. In fact to be honest, I bought her because no one else would bid on her (I'm a terrible soft touch) and I love her quirkiness.
She has made a fantastic mother and although really flighty before that..... I couldn't get anywhere near her...... she has now become quite a pet and one of my favourites.

So..... back to the genetics............
I've read and reread your post umpteen times and now my head hurts! I think I've grasped it, I type out a relevant reply/question and then I reread it and realise I haven't understood it at all!!!

If the blue egg gene is dominant, then my pullets should all lay blue eggs regardless of whether the rooster is homozygous or heterozygous,, but they may also get a blue egg gene from their mother if she really is an araucana..... but it must be a weak one because there is no tint to her eggs at all. I've read that the blue egg gene in Araucanas is linked to the pea comb but she doesn't have a pea comb. I would have thought that link would have continued into the Cream Legbar since the blue egg gene in them comes from the Araucana, but they don't have pea combs either, so I'm actually totally confused and should probably just put it all to the back of my mind and wait and see what happens when they start to lay.

Anyone got any comment on the RIR or Blue Haze hen to Cream Legbar rooster combo or am I better just sticking with my pure breed eggs this time? It looks like Farnces is set, so I need to decide which eggs I'm going to give her today or tomorrow.

Cheers

Barbara

 

[mday5701]

Can you post a picture. I am not sure if I have a cream hybrid

 

[rebrascora]

Quote:
Hi Mday5701

Not sure if your question was aimed at me but unfortunately I'm unable to post photos.

I would imagine cream legbar hybrids will be so varied in appearance that it would be pretty difficult to identify one from a photo. Certainly most of mine look like barred rocks at the moment(9 weeks) apart from their developing tufts (moustaches) which they get from their mother(araucana). I definitely wouldn't have guessed mine were cream legbar crosses if I didn't know how they were bred.

Maybe if you post a photo of yours, people will be able to comment?

Regards

Barbara

 

[ChicKat]

Hi

Many thanks for your reply.

Yes, here in the UK too, the Araucana should lay blue eggs and was sold as such, but it's always a bit of a lottery at auction. I was disappointed that her eggs weren't coloured but I already have cream legbars which lay blue, so it wasn't like I was deaperate for my first blue egg or anything. In fact to be honest, I bought her because no one else would bid on her (I'm a terrible soft touch) and I love her quirkiness.
She has made a fantastic mother and although really flighty before that..... I couldn't get anywhere near her...... she has now become quite a pet and one of my favourites.

So..... back to the genetics............
I've read and reread your post umpteen times and now my head hurts! I think I've grasped it, I type out a relevant reply/question and then I reread it and realise I haven't understood it at all!!!

If the blue egg gene is dominant, then my pullets should all lay blue eggs regardless of whether the rooster is homozygous or heterozygous,, but they may also get a blue egg gene from their mother if she really is an araucana..... but it must be a weak one because there is no tint to her eggs at all. I've read that the blue egg gene in Araucanas is linked to the pea comb but she doesn't have a pea comb. I would have thought that link would have continued into the Cream Legbar since the blue egg gene in them comes from the Araucana, but they don't have pea combs either, so I'm actually totally confused and should probably just put it all to the back of my mind and wait and see what happens when they start to lay.

Anyone got any comment on the RIR or Blue Haze hen to Cream Legbar rooster combo or am I better just sticking with my pure breed eggs this time? It looks like Farnces is set, so I need to decide which eggs I'm going to give her today or tomorrow.

Cheers

Barbara

Hi Barbara---

Good questions..and I don't have the answer fully..but here's what I think - so I will share it. If blue egg gene is dominant, then your Araucana, if she were to be heterozygous Two different egg genes), would lay a blue egg. As you say, the blue egg gene could be very 'weak' - and if there were the slightest green-cast to her ivory---then there is a maybe....there. I would think of her as not having the blue egg gene to pass along.

and yes, It didn't occur to me that the CL rooster could be heterozygous for blue (one blue egg gene and one non-blue.) -- Somehow...that didn't occur to me, and since he won't be laying any eggs to help us out there...he could - pass a non-blue gene along to offspring if he has any non-blue genes. -- My guess for a Cream Legbar is that he would have both genes blue. IF he doesn't then some of the offspring (statistically I think half of the pullets) could lay a non-blue. so your head was on straighter than mine was.... I guess, the rooster could have no blue-egg genes, and only pullets from him would answer that question.

Not familiar with a Blue Haze - here is what googling told me:

Background: The Blue Haze is a Rhode Island and Maran cross. A very popular breed, they often have a longer life than other hybrid breeds.

So in either case you will be using a brown egg-layer, Your chicks would then lay green or olive eggs. I know that Isbars - (of which I have some and think that they are wonderful chickens), have both RIR and CL in their make-up - they are absolutely beautiful, calm, highly productive and supposedly the only 'straight combed green-egg laying breed'. so you CL x RIR would have the possibility of being a bit like an Isbar. Your Blue Haze x CL would add the traits of Marans that Blue Haze would pass along. Both would probably be nice hybrids.

Since I am more partial to Isbars, and not a fan of feathered-feet...I would go with RIR X CL. Everyone is different in their preferences and goals...(LOL Just look at the discussions that go on!!!!)---- You may be looking for a nice saturated egg color - which may be the Marans contribution so your choice may be different from mine.

Professor Punnett of Cambridge did separate the blue egg gene from the pea comb...and I think that perhaps Cream Legbars are the only Breed that has straight comb and blue eggs... Others could correct me if I am wrong. I know the UK has some hybrids that cross blue egg layers with other breeds, but I don't think chickens like Sapphires breed true, so although single combed and blue egg laying they aren't a breed. In the USA, though I think perhaps the "Arkansas Blue" may lay blue eggs, or maybe it is just a blue chicken - not sure.

How cool that mother-hen-hood made your chicken more friendly. Sometimes when I have chicks raised by a broody they are less friendly - because the incubator chicks are your friend - but the chicks raised by a broody hen . go "who needs YOU?" LOL -- and the hen is the source. :O)

 

[rebrascora]

Thanks so much ChicKat

Between us I think we're maybe both a bit clearer on the subject although I would be delighted if someone was able to jump in and tell me if the CL cockerel is likely to be homozygous or heterzygous for the blue egg gene but if not, I must remember to update this thread, in goodness knows how many weeks, when the pullets have started laying.

I hadn't heard of Isbars, but your recommendation of them is certainly enough to encourage me to experiment with the RIRxCL eggs I have and slip a couple under the silky to hatch with the pure breeds eggs this time and maybe try the blue haze cross next time I have a broody, so I really appreciate your input on that.

I think it's actually more exciting breeding crosses than pure breeds because you have no real idea how it will turn out!

 

[HaplessRunner]

Eastern Region Cream Legbar Event - August 4, 2014
August 4th Eastern Region Event—Hosted by Anthony Markley - Regional Director
This will be a live presentation of Cream Legbars that demonstrates the effects and the influences of the ‘Ig’ and ‘ig’ genes upon the physical appearance of the Cream Legbar.
Also shown in this demonstration will be a pair of white “Cream Legbars” which display the effects of recessive white genes.
Location:
Lovettsville Library
12 North Light Street,
Lovettsville, VA 20180
Library Phone numbers: 540-822-5824 Voice 540-822-5998 Fax To contact Anthony Markley directly: [email protected] Phone: 540-822-9043
Date and Time:
Monday, August 4th at 7:30 PM
Directions: http://library.loudoun.gov/Portals/0/pdf/branchdirections.pdf
Note: All attendees are requested to wear clean clothes to avoid transmission of diseases from one chicken flock to another. Attendees will be allowed to look but NOT to touch the chickens shown in this presentation.

 

[lonnyandrinda]

Thanks so much ChicKat

Between us I think we're maybe both a bit clearer on the subject although I would be delighted if someone was able to jump in and tell me if the CL cockerel is likely to be homozygous or heterzygous for the blue egg gene but if not, I must remember to update this thread, in goodness knows how many weeks, when the pullets have started laying.

I hadn't heard of Isbars, but your recommendation of them is certainly enough to encourage me to experiment with the RIRxCL eggs I have and slip a couple under the silky to hatch with the pure breeds eggs this time and maybe try the blue haze cross next time I have a broody, so I really appreciate your input on that.

I think it's actually more exciting breeding crosses than pure breeds because you have no real idea how it will turn out!

Most likely if your Cream Legbars are from good stock he should be pure for blue egg gene. Since it is a dominant gene, genetically it is represented by a capital O, so homozygous for blue egg gene would be OO (two blue egg genes). Blue egg gene is simple dominant so OO or Oo (homozygous OR heterozygous) will both lay the same color of blue eggs. Since your suspect Auracana does not lay blue eggs, I would say she is probably not pure Auracana, and in fact at least 2 generations removed from pure Auraucana, because if she was half Auracana she would have Oo and lay blue eggs. Her blue egg genes are represented by oo (no blue egg genes).

Using a Mendelian chart, you get the following from breeding your hen and your roo:
Roo
O O
o | Oo Oo
Hen
o | Oo Oo

so 100% of their chicks will lay blue eggs (and be heterozygous for blue egg gene). However, if you bred the mom back to one of the males carrying Oo, this is what you get:
Roo
O o
o | Oo oo
Hen
o | oo oo

You will get 25% heterozygous blue egg layers, and 75% oo non-blue egg layers. (THIS CHART WILL BE THE RESULT ALSO IF YOUR CREAM LEGBAR ROO IS NOT PURE FOR BLUE EGG GENES)

Hope this made sense without confusing you more.

 

[rebrascora]

Hi

Yes, that makes perfect sense. Thank you so much for taking the trouble to break it down so simply and graphically, so even a "bird brain" can understand it.

Of course it's still all about statistics and they don't always apply in real life, do they! So the actual percentages will not necessarily reflect the real ones. Out of 13 chicks, the 75/25% split could, if I have bad luck, be 7 chicks to 6 and if I'm really unlucky, my female chicks will probably be within the none blue egg gene section whilst the males will get it but never lay an egg to prove it, so I could just get 1 or 2 blue egg laying pullets if the rooster is heterozygous! Fingers crossed, he is well bred and has both genes.

It's really interesting that all 13 of the offspring have tufts, so that must be a dominant gene, but to get that you would assume that the hen is homozygous for it and I thought that the tufting gene was lethal before hatch if they were both present..... anyway, I guess that is probably a discussion that needs to be taken to the araucana thread.

I guess I will have to keep them all till they start laying to satisfy my curiosity.

 

[lonnyandrinda]

Hi

Yes, that makes perfect sense. Thank you so much for taking the trouble to break it down so simply and graphically, so even a "bird brain" can understand it.

Of course it's still all about statistics and they don't always apply in real life, do they! So the actual percentages will not necessarily reflect the real ones. Out of 13 chicks, the 75/25% split could, if I have bad luck, be 7 chicks to 6 and if I'm really unlucky, my female chicks will probably be within the none blue egg gene section whilst the males will get it but never lay an egg to prove it, so I could just get 1 or 2 blue egg laying pullets if the rooster is heterozygous! Fingers crossed, he is well bred and has both genes.

It's really interesting that all 13 of the offspring have tufts, so that must be a dominant gene, but to get that you would assume that the hen is homozygous for it and I thought that the tufting gene was lethal before hatch if they were both present..... anyway, I guess that is probably a discussion that needs to be taken to the araucana thread.

I guess I will have to keep them all till they start laying to satisfy my curiosity.

Yes that is true. They say for "statistics" to really apply you have to use a large sample size- like 100 chicks. In any smaller sample you could happen to get a skewed result. But if all if your female chicks end up laying blue eggs then odds are very good that your rooster is homozygous for blue eggs. This SHOULD be the case- but I myself have discovered I have a heterozygous blue egg gene Cream Legbar rooster and I am now dealing with the repercussions that has caused in my flock. He is supposedly pure bred, sourcing back to GFF, but either something was off in their starter stock (which is unlikely since I haven't heard of other breeders running into this yet), or someone I got my birds from had a visitor to their Cream Legbar pen at one point! The really puzzling part is he LOOKS fantastic from the perspective of the breeding standard.



But here you can see his dad was not so great- he's the male on the left- so I'm guessing his dad is where the impure genes come from.



Yes tufting is dominant. Double tufting is not always lethal but it is considered a lethal gene because most of the chicks that get DT die before or just after hatch. If you do a google search is is pretty obvious what DT looks like versus ST, double tufts are much longer than single tufts. If yours is single tufted then you just got really lucky statistically. I have never owned an auraucana but that is my understanding.