Crested Cream Legbar Genotype vs. Phenotype

[KPenley]

I don't understand the statement.. "there is no acceptable color range at the moment"

I was referring to numbers on the OAC, sorry for any confusion. Blue or green have been the colors acceptable by the Cream Legbar Club for over a year now.

 

[dretd]

Quote: Mint green is a general description of OAC 123. This is one of the most common colors reported by Cream Legbar folks. I have received eggs from 3 different breeders and over half were OAC 123 and none I would label as 'blue'. I asked one of the sellers if the eggs were blue and the answer was yes, the eggs are blue. I see green (minty or sea-foam green if I were to describe it to another person without a picture), someone else sees blue.

The British breed standard that was imported along with the birds stated that blue, green and olive are acceptable colors. The American proposed standard has removed olive as acceptable and so the two listed colors are blue and green. So the qualification of 'mint' is a descriptor that helps you to understand what type of green. The green part has been a part of the breed standard since whenever it was introduced into the British SOP some time ago. We did not invent it.

I cannot presume that Punnett's color description of blue is any different than the breeder who described the eggs he sold me as blue when to my eye they are green. When Punnett said blue he may have meant 'genetically carries the blue egg gene which is manifested as a range of color most usually described as blue or blue-green to more on the green side of blue but because that is a mouthful, I'll just say blue'. I suspect that the green was added to the standard when half of the breeder's eggs were really described as green when you look at them so they put that in there so you wouldn't have to argue about the relative blueness of green, or greenness of blue.

Here is a shot of some egg shells. The bottom one is the interior (membrane removed)and exterior surface of a Cream Legbar shell. It is still damp so the interior is brighter but it will fade to the same color as the exterior demonstrating that the green pigment is throughout the shell, not just applied to the surface--I judged it as about OAC 123:

Here is a shot of the OAC color chart with an assortment of Cream Legbar eggs, OAC is 4th color from the left:


I personally think they are more green than blue, but others may argue the opposite. Certainly when I look at the OAC I would describe the color as mint green. These eggies are really hard to photograph and get a good representative color. I have even held eggs up to the same chart and had 3 different people think they are better represented by a different color on the chart. Some of it is the pair of eyes looking at the color and some of it is the color temperature of the lamp or sun you are using as the amount of yellow or blue in the light will change the perceived color of the egg. Both of the above photos were taken with natural sunlight, no flash.

 

[enola]

After reading about the mint green to blue color debate, I have to ask......

What color do your crested creme legbars lay?

I want a breed that lays BLUE eggs. I don't care what shade of blue, light, dark, it doesn't matter as long as they are blue.

I messed with expensive eggs from "reputable" breeders for a couple of years. I got more pullets that layed green than pullets that layed blue eggs. Even pullets that hatched from blue eggs layed eggs that were greener than blue.

I have junk EE that lay prettier blue eggs than any of the Ameraucanas have.

Is it really that hard to tell the difference between blue and green?

Is the SOP going to call for blue eggs or are green eggs going to be acceptable? Maybe I am asking too much?

 

[chicken pickin]

JMO and probably many others agree, that shades of blue to blueish- green to greenish-blue are very hard for the eye to distinguish. What some people see as blue others see as green. I know I have the its green no its blue debate all the time with my family members. Its a hard variation for the eye to decipher.

I believe it was Chickat that posted a color scale test of some sort. I know I did rather well on all the color categories except the blue - green category where my score wasn't to great.

 

[normanack]

Is it really that hard to tell the difference between blue and green? Is the SOP going to call for blue eggs or are green eggs going to be acceptable? Maybe I am asking too much?

Culturally, blue and green are the last colors to be distinguished -- named -- which means (I've read -- can't remember where at the moment) that they are the hardest for people to distinguish. Oddly enough, on the way home in the car today, I looked at a brand-new traffic light and said, "Hey, that's not green." My daughter thought it was blue. Then we both decided it was somewhere between blue and green.

The Japanese (again, don't have the source at hand, sorry) did not have a name for blue until Western culture made a significant impact on the Japanese culture.

Back to chickens. Personally, I'd love my hens to lay sky-blue eggs. I'm not sure, though, that they actually exist. Maybe the vast majority of CLs lay mint blueish green, with a few skewed more towards blue.

 

[chicken pickin]

Culturally, blue and green are the last colors to be distinguished -- named -- which means (I've read -- can't remember where at the moment) that they are the hardest for people to distinguish. Oddly enough, on the way home in the car today, I looked at a brand-new traffic light and said, "Hey, that's not green." My daughter thought it was blue. Then we both decided it was somewhere between blue and green.

The Japanese (again, don't have the source at hand, sorry) did not have a name for blue until Western culture made a significant impact on the Japanese culture.

Back to chickens. Personally, I'd love my hens to lay sky-blue eggs. I'm not sure, though, that they actually exist. Maybe the vast majority of CLs lay mint blueish green, with a few skewed more towards blue.

I believe they do exist. When I bought my first CL hatching eggs they were definitely BLUE, a nice sky blue, I was amazed by them. I have 2 EEs that lay blue eggs also though they have a very slight hue of green to them. So compared to my EE eggs the CL eggs I bought were definitely blue. I will have to dig through my pics and see If I took pictures of them prior to incubating. But again my blue may be someone elses blue/green. So its hard to say I guess.

Found a pic but I guess its hard to tell because now looking at the pic I see a slight green hue that I don't remember seeing in person

 

[enola]

Well I guess having a color chart will definitely help. At least the egg color could be referred to by a number, maybe cutting down on the confusion.

 

[ChicKat]

The British breed standard that was imported along with the birds stated that blue, green and olive are acceptable colors. The American proposed standard has removed olive as acceptable and so the two listed colors are blue and green. So the qualification of 'mint' is a descriptor that helps you to understand what type of green. The green part has been a part of the breed standard since whenever it was introduced into the British SOP some time ago. We did not invent it.

Actually, the first standard from Punnett's time didn't include green or olive--

Below is the original standard submitted to The Poultry Club of Great Britain via the Autosexing Breeds Association - which was founded in 1943, and who's president was Professor R. C. Punnett F.R.S. Punnett, along with Michael Pease devloped the Cream Legbar.

This Standard was adopted by The Poultry Club May 1958

Cream Legbar
STANDARD 1958

Light breed, nonsitter

THE COCK:

HEAD- Crested; beak stout; eyes prominent; comb single, straight and erect, evenly and deeply serrated, large but not overgrown, extending beyond the back of the head, free from side sprigs; earlobes well developed, pendant, smooth, and open; wattles long and thin.
NECK: Long, well covered with hackle feathers
BODY: Wedge shaped, prominent breast, and straight breast bone, long flat back, sloping slightly to the tail; wings well tucked up and tightly carried.
LEGS: Moderately long; shanks strong and free from feathers.
CARRIAGE: Sprightly and alert, but free from stiltiness.
WEIGHT: 6 to 6-1/2 lbs in cockerels; 7 to 7-1/2 lbs in cocks.

THE HEN:

General characteristics similar to those of the cock, allowing for sexual differences.
WEIGHT: 4-1/2 to 5 lbs in pullets; 5 to 6 lbs in hens.

C O L O U R

THE COCK:

Neck hackles -- Cream, sparsely barred.
Saddle Hackles -- Cream, barred with dark grey, tipped with cream.
Back & Shoulders -- Cream, with dark grey barring, some chestnut permissible.
Wing Primaries -- Dark grey, faintly barred, some white permissible.
Wing Secondaries -- Dark grey more clearly marked.
Wing Coverts -- Grey barred, tips cream, some chestnut smudges permissible.
Breast -- Evenly barred dark grey, well defined outline.
Tail -- Evenly barred grey, sickles being paler, some white feathers permissible.
Crest -- Cream and grey, some chestnut permissible.
Beak -- Yellow.
Eyes -- Red or orange.
Comb, Face, & Wattles -- Red.
Earlobes -- Pure opaque white or cream, slight pink markings not unduly to handicap an otherwise good bird.

THE HEN:

Neck Hackles -- Cream, softly barred grey.
Breast -- salmon, well defined in outline.
Body -- silver grey, with rather indistinct broad soft barring.
Wing Primaries -- Grey -peppered.
Wing Secondaries -- Very faintly barred.
Wing Coverts -- Silver grey.
Tail -- Silver grey, faintly barred.
Crest -- Cream and grey, some chestnut permissible.
Beak -- Yellow.
Eyes -- Orange or red.
Comb, face, and wattles -- Red.
Earlobes -- Pure white or cream.
Legs and Feet -- Yellow.

Eggs - Blue.

BTW, Dretd, nice photos! The eggs on the left are blue on my computer...

 

[ChicKat]

After reading about the mint green to blue color debate, I have to ask......

What color do your crested creme legbars lay?

I want a breed that lays BLUE eggs. I don't care what shade of blue, light, dark, it doesn't matter as long as they are blue.

I messed with expensive eggs from "reputable" breeders for a couple of years. I got more pullets that layed green than pullets that layed blue eggs. Even pullets that hatched from blue eggs layed eggs that were greener than blue.

I have junk EE that lay prettier blue eggs than any of the Ameraucanas have.

Is it really that hard to tell the difference between blue and green?

Is the SOP going to call for blue eggs or are green eggs going to be acceptable? Maybe I am asking too much?

It has gotta be really frustrating to chase down the true blue egg.

Especially with CLs it would be so much better to under promise and over deliver. So many of us when CLs first came on the scene in 2012 were eagerly awaiting that first egg from the pullets. What is out there now is a range of colors -- And if you are thinking of getting hatching eggs...ask what the OAC color is. My first CL (I blew out and saved her egg) is OAC179 - and I'm going for bluer....

Probably the Ameraucana and Araucana birds are the same... you don't know 100% what on those color charts she will lay -- until she does... Just don't call Green ones Blue. It could be that Punnett was referring to just the O/O genetics...since he was a geneticist and hence the original SOP from 1958 only had blue!!

Even with these charts -- It can still be between two colors or 'a bit lighter than.....'
http://www.feathersite.com/Poultry/CGA/Arau/BRKArauEgg.html

As Dretd said in another post somewhere -- it loks like 3/4 of the egg colors on those charts are actually green. sigh.

The original poster of the color perception test was I think lonnyandrinda - and since it takes forever and a half to dig through old BYC posts -- I just went out to the google world and found it again.

 

[normanack]

It has gotta be really frustrating to chase down the true blue egg.

Especially with CLs it would be so much better to under promise and over deliver. So many of us when CLs first came on the scene in 2012 were eagerly awaiting that first egg from the pullets. What is out there now is a range of colors -- And if you are thinking of getting hatching eggs...ask what the OAC color is. My first CL (I blew out and saved her egg) is OAC179 - and I'm going for bluer....

Probably the Ameraucana and Araucana birds are the same... you don't know 100% what on those color charts she will lay -- until she does... Just don't call Green ones Blue. It could be that Punnett was referring to just the O/O genetics...since he was a geneticist and hence the original SOP from 1958 only had blue!!

Even with these charts -- It can still be between two colors or 'a bit lighter than.....'
http://www.feathersite.com/Poultry/CGA/Arau/BRKArauEgg.html

As Dretd said in another post somewhere -- it loks like 3/4 of the egg colors on those charts are actually green. sigh.

The original poster of the color perception test was I think lonnyandrinda - and since it takes forever and a half to dig through old BYC posts -- I just went out to the google world and found it again.

To the tune of Heartbreak Hotel. Everyone all together, please:

I've got a Cream Legbar problem
Don't know what I'm goin' to do,
My eggs are green, I want them blue
Ameraucana blue

It makes me so lonely baby,
I get so lonely
I want that B-1 color -- I could dye.