This is a pullet from Rudy -- fall hatch. Sorry for the pic that doesn't show type, but it will show color. The cock didn't make
trip ;-(
trip ;-(
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CSU - Chicken State University- Large Fowl SOP
- Thread starter Fred's Hens
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In poultry.........the way a chicken looks (color) does not always tell you what the bird is is really carrying genetically. Until you know that ......the genetic rules are not always going to work. You really see that in the oriental game birds. (Asil, Shamo, Phoenix etc).
Walt
Walt
it is written in hubbards poultry secrets, the standard bred orpington , and a fowl for our times..from cornell free library..hamburg, dorking either silver or white and couple other breeds were used in creation of white orp..hamburg,langshan, cochin , leghorn were used in blk orp..im in the wrong thread for this part but a lot of people wanted credit for the king of the orps the buff, im going to read that part tonight..who knew..they were fighting about it even back then..by the time cook unveiled his..the vass and lincolnshire? buffs were already being presented in the show arena..
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i am seeing that now walt..i will tell you about it when i get a chance with pics..so interesting..one layer was removed..interesting things came out..do you think that people can over think things?
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- May 19, 2009
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Quote: I agree, Walt. I wish someone (preferably a veteran breeder and/or judge) would write modern book on the Dorking and Sussex. The closest we have now is the one by Batty.
It is difficult to read the old lit and then try and decipher how far a breed has come since then so one can apply whatever knowledge is still relevant to the breed as it now exists.
Best,
Karen
Judge Overton, are you reading this?
It is difficult to read the old lit and then try and decipher how far a breed has come since then so one can apply whatever knowledge is still relevant to the breed as it now exists.
Best,
Karen
Judge Overton, are you reading this?
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I just read through the old literature you posted earlier and am now in a high state of irritability, lol(I hate the "voice" used in older writings!) but the insight of how old information was being gathered and pieced together, and today has basically become dogma is quite fasinating! Thanks again for posting that!
Conversely, I always love the voice in the old literature. I find it soothing with a strong sense of place and nobility of purpose and function. I am always mindful, though, to take it with a grain of salt. They knew a lot back then, and one gets the sense that they really worked at their poultry. Still, there is a lot that they did not know. They often make grand pronouncements of gloom and doom that, nowadays we know to dismiss. Poultry authors past and present (and one often gets the sense with older writers that they at least had their hand in poultry) love to make paracommunicative, sweeping statements about breeds: "this breed is great for such and such, or this breed has a big problem with this or that thing." A breed has a potential for this or a potential for that, but the fact of the quality remains in the strain; it is an immediate effect of the breeding of each generation. The truth of the breed, or even the strains within the breed, is now:
It's often written that Dorkings are the king of all meat birds! Well, sure, in potential. It's wrapped up in their type and in the process of selection, safeguarded by the SOP. Are they actually the king of all meat birds? No, because I don't think there's a single strain in North America today that meets the genetic potential for the breed. I actually don't even think there's one that's really that close. Nevertheless, I do think there are some breeders heading in that direction, and with continued focus and discipline over time I think we'll get there .
Dorkings are often said in the old literature to be tender and to lack hardiness and to be susceptible to wetness--rubbish! All of these things are strain based and dependent on the immediate breeding of the birds. Our birds are tough, flat out tough, but this is because of selection in a trying environment. Now the single combs of the Reds and SGs aren't safe here, but that's not a Dorking statement. A Minorca wouldn't make it past November. Our coops (http://www.yellowhousefarmnh.com/photo-tour) are without insulation in the middle of a snowfield on lake level with damp, heavy air. YHF rule #1: no single combs. The rose comb of the Whites? Impervious.
I am a major reader of the old poultry literature, of old literature in general actually, but--just like reading new literature--it often needs to be taken with a grain--or a pound--of salt. At the risk of this post becoming long, I'd share this quote from a more current work, the late Dr. Carefoot's book Creative Poultry Breeding , published in 1985, which I'll abridge for the interests of brevity. In way of biography, Dr. Carefoot was a poultry geneticist and past president of the Poultry Club of Great Britain (the APA of the UK), ergo he was a writer who was specialist, breeder, and judge:
In common with many civilized societies the poultry fancy is in danger of becoming obsessed with a longing for "former glories". The current, almost paranoiac, desire is to preserve rarity irrespective of quality. Without intending any disrespect to the fancier who wishes to preserve breeds which do not appear ever to have been firmly established, when one looks at many of the rare breeds one can immediately see why they are rare [...] The breeder wishes to improve, not to preserve [...] the striving for perfection provides the interest which fuels our incentive [...] History is only important where it provides clear examples of where on can improve one's stock[...] What is gone is over. The future of quality stock is to breed aggressively with the intention of improvement. If every breed had but a handful of breeders competing fiercely, quality would almost certainly improve dramatically. Consequently the urge to collect breeds of poultry the way some collect postage stamps, does little to improve the breeds kept [...] the fancier wishing to keep rare breeds alive would be more effective if he concentrated mainly on one or two such breeds, hatched and reared plenty [...] if a breeder only breeds a handful of chickens, by in large his strain deteriorates [...] Rarity is not a virtue in itself; indeed when one sees an outstanding bird one realizes that rarity is indeed a vice[...] the production by a skillful breeder of high quality birds of a particular variety will attract sufficient interest to ensure preservation and, one hopes, improvement [...] if the conservationists attained a sufficiently high standard of stock within a particular breed it would take care of itself. In practice, high quality stock is the rarest poultry of all.
Currently, because of what's happening now, our birds are very hardy. They come into lay when they should: at 5 to 6 months. They lay steadily from fall to summer. They are not prone to any exaggerated broodiness as is often suggested in the literature until just about this time of year. When it's hot, I have to be good about frequent egg collection, or I can get four brooding in the same box; however, with regular and prompt egg collection most will lay through the summer without going broody.
Our meat qualities are strong and improve with each passing season. However, I make this statement without any comparison to modern meat birds. It is inappropriate to compare standard-bred fowl to corporate meat birds; they're simply not the same creature. Without any value judgment toward either, they're simply not the same product. Standard-bred fowl fit the traditional cookery of progression from broiler to fryer to roaster to fowl. These are seasonal cuts that perfectly match the standard-bred growing season and the appropriate cooking methods of the given time of year. This is the rhythm for which Dorkings are built and are suited.
The Dorking was a truly awesome breed developed to a high level of perfection, which is the only way it has survived the neglect it has suffered over the last fifty years. La Fleche, Crevecoeurs, Redcaps, Houdans, among others have not been so lucky; they were dropped earlier; they were dropped harder. It is funny reading the old literature when one realizes that again and again the Dorking is hailed as the very best in meat quality, but then it was universally rejected on the most superficial, even foolish, levels: it had white skin and a supernumerary toe. The great opportunity today is that no one cares about whether a bird has white or yellow skin, although poultry writers, who are most frequently not poultry breeders, continue to parrot the ridiculous idea that Americans prefer yellow skin.
On the other hand, the Dorking is at the great disadvantage of coming in far too many color varieties. The SOP admits five only three of which are currently actually valid: Whites, Reds, and Silver Greys, but many are pushing ridiculous colors that never had any ,validity at all and most certainly never will. If we can galvanize a half a dozen breeders in each of the primary three varieties of White, Red, and Silver Grey, who are willing and able to specialize, hatch in number, and hold the course, the Dorking could rebound in the next decade.
It's often written that Dorkings are the king of all meat birds! Well, sure, in potential. It's wrapped up in their type and in the process of selection, safeguarded by the SOP. Are they actually the king of all meat birds? No, because I don't think there's a single strain in North America today that meets the genetic potential for the breed. I actually don't even think there's one that's really that close. Nevertheless, I do think there are some breeders heading in that direction, and with continued focus and discipline over time I think we'll get there .
Dorkings are often said in the old literature to be tender and to lack hardiness and to be susceptible to wetness--rubbish! All of these things are strain based and dependent on the immediate breeding of the birds. Our birds are tough, flat out tough, but this is because of selection in a trying environment. Now the single combs of the Reds and SGs aren't safe here, but that's not a Dorking statement. A Minorca wouldn't make it past November. Our coops (http://www.yellowhousefarmnh.com/photo-tour) are without insulation in the middle of a snowfield on lake level with damp, heavy air. YHF rule #1: no single combs. The rose comb of the Whites? Impervious.
I am a major reader of the old poultry literature, of old literature in general actually, but--just like reading new literature--it often needs to be taken with a grain--or a pound--of salt. At the risk of this post becoming long, I'd share this quote from a more current work, the late Dr. Carefoot's book Creative Poultry Breeding , published in 1985, which I'll abridge for the interests of brevity. In way of biography, Dr. Carefoot was a poultry geneticist and past president of the Poultry Club of Great Britain (the APA of the UK), ergo he was a writer who was specialist, breeder, and judge:
In common with many civilized societies the poultry fancy is in danger of becoming obsessed with a longing for "former glories". The current, almost paranoiac, desire is to preserve rarity irrespective of quality. Without intending any disrespect to the fancier who wishes to preserve breeds which do not appear ever to have been firmly established, when one looks at many of the rare breeds one can immediately see why they are rare [...] The breeder wishes to improve, not to preserve [...] the striving for perfection provides the interest which fuels our incentive [...] History is only important where it provides clear examples of where on can improve one's stock[...] What is gone is over. The future of quality stock is to breed aggressively with the intention of improvement. If every breed had but a handful of breeders competing fiercely, quality would almost certainly improve dramatically. Consequently the urge to collect breeds of poultry the way some collect postage stamps, does little to improve the breeds kept [...] the fancier wishing to keep rare breeds alive would be more effective if he concentrated mainly on one or two such breeds, hatched and reared plenty [...] if a breeder only breeds a handful of chickens, by in large his strain deteriorates [...] Rarity is not a virtue in itself; indeed when one sees an outstanding bird one realizes that rarity is indeed a vice[...] the production by a skillful breeder of high quality birds of a particular variety will attract sufficient interest to ensure preservation and, one hopes, improvement [...] if the conservationists attained a sufficiently high standard of stock within a particular breed it would take care of itself. In practice, high quality stock is the rarest poultry of all.
Currently, because of what's happening now, our birds are very hardy. They come into lay when they should: at 5 to 6 months. They lay steadily from fall to summer. They are not prone to any exaggerated broodiness as is often suggested in the literature until just about this time of year. When it's hot, I have to be good about frequent egg collection, or I can get four brooding in the same box; however, with regular and prompt egg collection most will lay through the summer without going broody.
Our meat qualities are strong and improve with each passing season. However, I make this statement without any comparison to modern meat birds. It is inappropriate to compare standard-bred fowl to corporate meat birds; they're simply not the same creature. Without any value judgment toward either, they're simply not the same product. Standard-bred fowl fit the traditional cookery of progression from broiler to fryer to roaster to fowl. These are seasonal cuts that perfectly match the standard-bred growing season and the appropriate cooking methods of the given time of year. This is the rhythm for which Dorkings are built and are suited.
The Dorking was a truly awesome breed developed to a high level of perfection, which is the only way it has survived the neglect it has suffered over the last fifty years. La Fleche, Crevecoeurs, Redcaps, Houdans, among others have not been so lucky; they were dropped earlier; they were dropped harder. It is funny reading the old literature when one realizes that again and again the Dorking is hailed as the very best in meat quality, but then it was universally rejected on the most superficial, even foolish, levels: it had white skin and a supernumerary toe. The great opportunity today is that no one cares about whether a bird has white or yellow skin, although poultry writers, who are most frequently not poultry breeders, continue to parrot the ridiculous idea that Americans prefer yellow skin.
On the other hand, the Dorking is at the great disadvantage of coming in far too many color varieties. The SOP admits five only three of which are currently actually valid: Whites, Reds, and Silver Greys, but many are pushing ridiculous colors that never had any ,validity at all and most certainly never will. If we can galvanize a half a dozen breeders in each of the primary three varieties of White, Red, and Silver Grey, who are willing and able to specialize, hatch in number, and hold the course, the Dorking could rebound in the next decade.
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"If every breed had but a handful of breeders competing fiercely, quality would almost certainly improve dramatically."
"the production by a skillful breeder of high quality birds of a particular variety will attract sufficient interest to ensure preservation and, one hopes, improvement [...] if the conservationists attained a sufficiently high standard of stock within a particular breed it would take care of itself. In practice, high quality stock is the rarest poultry of all."
I have seen the results of the first quote many times. In my case the greater the competition in a breed that I raise the better my birds get.
The second quote is true as well. When newbies start playing with all these crazy colors you can watch the breed become polluted and wither away. I see this happen all the time now. The "breeders"..lol....wonder why their breed has all these problems and all these screwy throwback colors that come popping out.
The cuckoo Dorking should never have been recognized by the APA. Out of the 50+ birds there at the qualifying meet only two would have passed if it had been up to me. Both were pullets. You don't see any cuckoo Dorkings now. While I understand that mixing colors is fun for some folks, it does serious damage to the breed, because these "project" birds get out into the general population...and as I state all the time.......you can't tell that they are scrambled genetically as they look correct.
Joe.......It is good to see someone else who understands that just because it is old does not mean it is true. I too enjoy the old writings, and many of them are right on....but not all of them.
Walt
"the production by a skillful breeder of high quality birds of a particular variety will attract sufficient interest to ensure preservation and, one hopes, improvement [...] if the conservationists attained a sufficiently high standard of stock within a particular breed it would take care of itself. In practice, high quality stock is the rarest poultry of all."
I have seen the results of the first quote many times. In my case the greater the competition in a breed that I raise the better my birds get.
The second quote is true as well. When newbies start playing with all these crazy colors you can watch the breed become polluted and wither away. I see this happen all the time now. The "breeders"..lol....wonder why their breed has all these problems and all these screwy throwback colors that come popping out.
The cuckoo Dorking should never have been recognized by the APA. Out of the 50+ birds there at the qualifying meet only two would have passed if it had been up to me. Both were pullets. You don't see any cuckoo Dorkings now. While I understand that mixing colors is fun for some folks, it does serious damage to the breed, because these "project" birds get out into the general population...and as I state all the time.......you can't tell that they are scrambled genetically as they look correct.
Joe.......It is good to see someone else who understands that just because it is old does not mean it is true. I too enjoy the old writings, and many of them are right on....but not all of them.
Walt
they didnt have good editors back then either yellow house farm..you will find they repeat themselves, even contradict themselves on occasion in the same book....that being said..you get so get a glimpse into the thoughts of the day.the scrapping and fighting in those days is what suprised me.I would have thought it might have been a bit more gentlemanly...
there was not a tops grocery market in those days. they lived poultry and farm animals..things they took for granted knowlege that everyone is hungry to know today like a lost art..people are quite far removed from farming today..You will see questions as comical as OMG why is that chicken scratching on the ground? I work with a woman who thinks eggs grow under a plastic in the grocery store..she literally said to me OMG they poop! how can you stand those stinkey farm animals..I said, you mean the ones that feed your kids 3 times a day? jeepers..this kind of chicken didnt grow under plastic wrap at the grocery store is literally what I said to her... people seriously dont know, we live in a plastic world ..or you will see people way overthinking things....without those origioanl breeders you and I would have nothing other than jungle fowl to start with..thier thoughts and notes to me are so valuable and yes you need to read between the lines....you also wouldnt want to use some of the treatments of the day either..quite toxic to both bird and man..we have come a long way..the Dorking was a favored roman table bird that made its way around the european backyards.....I always find them when Im at the shows just because I like them..unique wonderful birds..there was a great blog going on a while ago about a young man desperate to re create an extinct european breed..it took him years to travel as far as russia to find info on what foundation breeds were used to create this breed..the breed was lost during so many different wars ravaging the european countrys..one of the foundation breeds in the lost breed was Dorking..it was great fun to follow his progress.
I asked a german breeder why are they succesful with their breeding tactics..he told me something interesting in thier approach..he said , look at chickens much as the rest of the bird world..when choosing breeding birds..pic the females with the best type body and features..if you try to correct females you wont by covering them with a good male..choose only very correct females..then cover with the very best colored males..the males in the bird world are your color producers, your females make the shapes..in the wild the most colorful males will most often win and pass on better color to offspring..He was simplifying the concept for me that was quite confused thinking being that I am novice and easily confused by others I had an assortment of different advise that was all contradicting and one was this, I need to pick the brightest colored females and never mind that horrid comb..I tried my freinds simple approach this year and out of 20 chicks...17 came out exactly as he said..cobby ...and had mothers build..3 of them were larger more gangley like the father was at this age..too soon on color in juvinal feather yet..he was trying to dumb it down a bit for a novice instead of all of the bad and complicated advise..he also told me relax..dont let a smutty feather or this or that get you upset..it can be fixed..past breederws have worked out everything from stubbs to wrong colors with a lot greater ease than today..today we over work things, over think things and throw away birds that we shouldnt...he wanted to build a ladder for me to climb, and I am on the first rung of the ladder. start with a base and start climbing.
he also said what walt just did.. if you are novice, you should not play with complicated colors and patterns, play in the basic colors of white , black and even some buff, but not patterns..you need to get your shapes or build the house in order first..or a well established color.
an oldie but goodie painting
illustration from german dorking club
there was not a tops grocery market in those days. they lived poultry and farm animals..things they took for granted knowlege that everyone is hungry to know today like a lost art..people are quite far removed from farming today..You will see questions as comical as OMG why is that chicken scratching on the ground? I work with a woman who thinks eggs grow under a plastic in the grocery store..she literally said to me OMG they poop! how can you stand those stinkey farm animals..I said, you mean the ones that feed your kids 3 times a day? jeepers..this kind of chicken didnt grow under plastic wrap at the grocery store is literally what I said to her... people seriously dont know, we live in a plastic world ..or you will see people way overthinking things....without those origioanl breeders you and I would have nothing other than jungle fowl to start with..thier thoughts and notes to me are so valuable and yes you need to read between the lines....you also wouldnt want to use some of the treatments of the day either..quite toxic to both bird and man..we have come a long way..the Dorking was a favored roman table bird that made its way around the european backyards.....I always find them when Im at the shows just because I like them..unique wonderful birds..there was a great blog going on a while ago about a young man desperate to re create an extinct european breed..it took him years to travel as far as russia to find info on what foundation breeds were used to create this breed..the breed was lost during so many different wars ravaging the european countrys..one of the foundation breeds in the lost breed was Dorking..it was great fun to follow his progress.
I asked a german breeder why are they succesful with their breeding tactics..he told me something interesting in thier approach..he said , look at chickens much as the rest of the bird world..when choosing breeding birds..pic the females with the best type body and features..if you try to correct females you wont by covering them with a good male..choose only very correct females..then cover with the very best colored males..the males in the bird world are your color producers, your females make the shapes..in the wild the most colorful males will most often win and pass on better color to offspring..He was simplifying the concept for me that was quite confused thinking being that I am novice and easily confused by others I had an assortment of different advise that was all contradicting and one was this, I need to pick the brightest colored females and never mind that horrid comb..I tried my freinds simple approach this year and out of 20 chicks...17 came out exactly as he said..cobby ...and had mothers build..3 of them were larger more gangley like the father was at this age..too soon on color in juvinal feather yet..he was trying to dumb it down a bit for a novice instead of all of the bad and complicated advise..he also told me relax..dont let a smutty feather or this or that get you upset..it can be fixed..past breederws have worked out everything from stubbs to wrong colors with a lot greater ease than today..today we over work things, over think things and throw away birds that we shouldnt...he wanted to build a ladder for me to climb, and I am on the first rung of the ladder. start with a base and start climbing.
he also said what walt just did.. if you are novice, you should not play with complicated colors and patterns, play in the basic colors of white , black and even some buff, but not patterns..you need to get your shapes or build the house in order first..or a well established color.
an oldie but goodie painting
illustration from german dorking club
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Aveca said: "... the males in the bird world are your color producers, your females make the shapes..in the wild the most colorful males will most often win and pass on better color to offspring.."
I have heard this time and again when reading the writings of the old poultry men. Yet modern genetics geniuses say it's complete nonsense. How can it be nonsense if the best breeders of the times believe it? I mean that ones that actually breed chickens and successfully? Science is a wonderful thing but sometimes we have to step back and admit that because a formula or something "proves" a thing to be true, it might still not be accurate.
I have heard this time and again when reading the writings of the old poultry men. Yet modern genetics geniuses say it's complete nonsense. How can it be nonsense if the best breeders of the times believe it? I mean that ones that actually breed chickens and successfully? Science is a wonderful thing but sometimes we have to step back and admit that because a formula or something "proves" a thing to be true, it might still not be accurate.
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