Cutting the protein in duckling food?

[Speceider]

All my knowledge is based entirely on experience, including my own measly 3 years, but primarily the more than five decades of hands-on breeding, showing, and raising experience of the world's highly respected duck expert, Dave Holderread. He says to cut protein percentage by adding oats or wheat. At first I did it because he said to (and his advice has never led me wrong), then I quit because I read a bunch of respectable stuff about carbs and amino acid balance, and I raised a group without cutting the protein with oats. And I ended up with a bunch of birds developing angel wing.


Well, for comparison, Will Dean was Director of the Cornell Duck Research Lab (http://www.duckhealth.com/ducklab.html), so I imagine he has been responsible for raising a few more birds than Dave. You might want to read a paper Gil Bernard (not peer-reiewed) published years ago. Brian Witt sent me a copy several years ago (you probably weren't keeping ducks then), that concludes angel wing is genetic in muscovies. I'm not completely convinced, but he makes a good case. For what it's worth, both Gil and Brian are very well-respected muscovy breeders.

I don't really care what anyone else suggests, but I will also provide my thoughts that are based upon the scientific literature available. I've only been raising ducks for 40 years, and made my careeer waterfowl biology.

Clint

 

[Wifezilla]

Yes. The ducklings get the high protein feed from day 1. I live in the burbs so not a lot of range for them to free on. Their supplemental feed comes from the pond, the garden and the lawn. They get a bucket with greens and minnows,etc in their morning water bucket as things are available. So no, they aren't self down regulating much on the protein level. I have two ducklings on a patch of clover in a tractor set up right now and 4 in a pen with their mom. They are just over 3weeks now and no angel wing in either group. I have 3 drakes from an earlier clutch and they are big, strong, and perfectly healthy with no angel wing. They also had high protein feed from day 1. Sometimes I will buy a bag of whole oats on sale and it does go in a separate feeder. They nibble from time to time, but it isn't a preferred food. Fish and peas are the top 2 snacks.

 

[Kschwartz]

If you add oats and it cuts protein, isn't it technically cutting niacin and other vitamins in the feed too?

So if I did add oats (which now I am unsure if I want to...) would I need to add in some vitamins too? Keep in mind my ducks are PETS, so I want them to be healthy.

 

[Speceider]

Yes, cutting the feed with oats affects the entire diet, having more impact on some compenents more than others. I would say that it really doesn't matter whether they're pets of production. You will not get peak production by minimizing inputs. I know some will argue that production stresses growtyh too much and don't want to do that to pets, but ducks are genetically programmed to fledge in 42-49 days if they're mallards. Slowing growth will just stunt them, which is not optimal.

Here's a table I developed. I didn't work with vitamins (that information is available), because it's a little more difficult to do easily because of all the precursors.






Feed kcal/kg % protein % ARG % ISOL % LEU % LYS % METH % METH + CYS % TRY % VAL MG Niacin
Recommended 2900 22 1.1 0.63 1.26 0.9 0.4 0.7 0.23 0.78 55
oatmeal 3120 16 0.9 0.55 1 0.54 0.2 0.44 0.2 0.75 13
whole oats 2550 11.4 0.79 0.52 0.89 0.5 0.18 0.4 0.16 0.68 12
wheat (hard red) 2900 14.1 0.6 0.44 0.89 0.37 0.21 0.51 0.16 0.57 48

Mixed 75:25oatmeal 2955 20.5 1.05 0.61 1.195 0.81 0.35 0.635 0.2225 0.7725 44.5
Mixed 60:40oatmeal 2988 19.6 1.02 0.598 1.156 0.756 0.32 0.596 0.218 0.768 38.2

mixed 75:25oats 2812.5 19.35 1.0225 0.6025 1.1675 0.8 0.345 0.625 0.2125 0.755 44.25
Mixed 65:35oats 2777.5 18.29 0.9915 0.5915 1.1305 0.76 0.323 0.595 0.2055 0.745 39.95
mixed 55:45oats 2742.5 17.23 0.9605 0.5805 1.0935 0.72 0.301 0.565 0.1985 0.735 35.65

mixed 75:25wheat 2900 20.025 0.975 0.5825 1.1675 0.7675 0.3525 0.6525 0.2125 0.7275 53.25


Clint

 

[destinduck]

Thats what I would consider free ranging with oats taking down (cutting) the protien count along with whatever they also find in the pond garden and lawn (also lowering it without a doubt) What I would call free choice food and mostly free range, very lucky ducks indeed! I unfortunately dont have that luxury of time or space for the ducklings. I have so many my ducklings are raised in confined brooders and hence fed a low protien commercial diet with little or no treats. Im convinced that most people are in my situation unfortunately and not of yours as I have always stated on any angelwing discussions. Excersise and free choice oviously play a big part as many have stated. But I will always stand by the statement." Keep the PROTIEN % on your feedbags low when your ducklings start getting their wings and you wont have even worry about it anyway". I had to find this out the hard way many years ago thru experience (the best teacher in my opinion). Im adamant about this subject so new people that have just a few ducklings and a small backyard flock such as yourself or me that raise hundreds for many years do not have to deal with it in the first place. In closing (BTW I do not recommend doing this also) but will end all the debates on this if need be with a very simple experiment although highly unethical BUT blunt and to the point.This is for science or experience. Take your pick. The results are ALWAYS the same. Pen up two control groups of ducklings that are going to get flight feathers shortly in equally small brooders and feed one group HIGH protien commercial store bought bagged food and water ONLY and the other LOW protien feed and water and see what happens!!!! Now I say ducklings that are going to get their flight feathers because younger ducklings NEED a higher protien % before getting to this stage for beneficial growth. But nonetheless the results will ALWAYS be more angel wing in the high % protien group. Fact. Whether we throw in carbs ,excersise,etc. in the mix of the cause. I dont know how to make this any clearer honestly . On a side note geese are more subseptible to this (angelwing by too much protien during wing emergence) than ducks.

 

[destinduck]

Edited to say Ill let Clint or Kermit (aka Resolution) fill in the technical reserch.

Which some of it is very interesting .

 

[Wifezilla]

I know people see I feed other stuff besides feed and think "But that other stuff takes down the protein percentage!!". What is the protein percentage in rosy minnows? (40-50%?) Algae? (around 40%) Duckweed (18%), Clover (15% plus), Peas? (27%)...oh...and I forgot to mention one of their FAVORITE treats...cat food. Taste of the Wild brand to be specific. Protein percentage? 38%. I take a handful out to the pen every morning. Everybody gets some. So if you think the protein percent in my duck's feed is seriously diluted, it's only a delusion.

 

[Boggy Bottom Bantams]

Quote:
Shawn ,
I have to agree with pretty much everything you have said here. Folks, plain and simple, listen to decades of hands on experience and literally 1000's upon 1000's of ducks raised .
Or listen to the theories and speculations. Some folks just want to learn the hard way though. Also to a degree, yes genetics of the parents do come into play, ones from angel wing prone lines yes will often be more susceptible than those from strong genetics that have never shown a problem. (what I feel wifzilla has, just a real good line and been lucky)

But in every thread on this site, every time protein is mentioned, those speaking of it get bashed and told they are wrong, it's this or that or the other but NOT protein.
I'm in Shawns boat here, PROVE IT.
our personal experiences with countless birds over many many years, as well as that of virtually every other major breeder with some years under their belt will tell you the same thing.

One believes it's carbs, ones says exercises, well that's fine, it maybe in part, but when everything leads to one pretty much for sure being a factor, dont say no that's not it, because honestly....you're not sure, that's why it's called a theory. As others have mentioned, go out and do some real world personal experiments over about a decade with 2000-3000 birds a year, document and publish all the findings, then come back and prove the theory to us.

In the mean time, pretty much every breeder with some age under their belt says protein is ONE of the the leading causes, NOTE I dont not say IT'S THE ONLY cause... But it's listed first in virtually every angel wing article you will read.

As for the commercial meat production thing, those people have their OWN feeds. Purina and all the various companies make the feed 99.9% of all of us buy. It is not the same as what the meat farmers feed, it is in fact made for the over all health of our birds. Unless you have time and a chemistry set, you have no other options to be sure they are getting all the nutrients they need. You have to think of that in an ethical and economical sense. Most all of us have to work and honestly just dont have time to prepare a zoological based diet of fresh this and chopped that. That's what Purina is for.

in short, no two people are going to agree 100% on this topic, reason being, everyone has seen it in birds and feel they know why.... be it time based year after year studing of their personal experiences in their flock, something some one read for Lord knows who on the web, or just a guess.. In short, have a theory, post away about it, that's fine, but dont tell others they are 100% wrong til you can 100% back it up

 

[Wifezilla]

When someone makes the claim that "those 18%-20% or higher feeds will do it every time", of course someone who has living proof this is not true is going to make a comment. The definitive study to prove once and for all where angel wing comes from have not been done. So it leaves people to experiment, read available literature and make their own conclusions.

My conclusion is based on stomach content studies of wild mallard ducklings, the lack of angel wing in waterfowl that are not close to humans, the harmful effects often attributed to protein without scientific evidence, and the natural diet of wild ducks in general. Also combine this with the fact that duckling in the wild do not dine on corn and soy, which are the two prime components of bagged feed.

As for me getting lucky and ending up with genetically superior super ducks, I will be sure to let Metzer know that their poorly colored hens contain some awesome genetics.

 

[destinduck]

As Aubrey pointed out AGAIN 99.9% of us use purina or other commercially store bought bagged food MAINLY. AGAIN in my last post DO the experiment I mentioned for yourself if you dont believe me and wish to follow Wifezillas way. Take any species duck you want to use for this dastardly deed ( even YOUR best ducklings Wifezilla

)AGAIN NOTHING fed but water and commercial store bought food in a confined brooder with no rosy minnows,algae,duckweed,clover,taste of the wild or extra protien or carbs or free access to nature. This is your factual science and you will most definitely see angelwing rear its ugly head the hard way. As she has stated many times she wants scientific proof.Here it is at its worst!!! How much more cyrstal clear can I be on this particular point of high pecentage protien bagged food which AGAIN is what 99.9% of us AND the original poster USE and CARE ABOUT!!!!! I truly dont care NEAR about the CAUSE as I care about the EFFECTS! If it makes you happy Linda I hope it turns out you are right on the CAUSE of angelwing. And then you can get all the manufacturers of store bought feed to change the labels accordingly so we know what we are dealing with since its not high % percentage protien on the bags that we have to go by now. In the meantime I stand by all my posts, the experiment (if you dare) and my personal experience with this subject. The dead horse has once again been beaten.