Cutting the protein in duckling food?

[AliciaM]

Can someone give me an idea on what to feed to cut the protein levels in the feed im using?? Im feeding flock raiser and its 20%.

I give them fresh grass daily.. Ive heard of using oats.. but what kind?? Can I get like quaker oats from my pantry and use that? Do I mix it with there crumble, or add another feeder for it?
I feed the chickens scratch grains for a treat, will that also work??

Any ideas are appreciated...

 

[FenDruadin]

Yup, I know nothing about what it does to the amino acid ratio, etc. All my knowledge is based entirely on experience, including my own measly 3 years, but primarily the more than five decades of hands-on breeding, showing, and raising experience of the world's highly respected duck expert, Dave Holderread. He says to cut protein percentage by adding oats or wheat. At first I did it because he said to (and his advice has never led me wrong), then I quit because I read a bunch of respectable stuff about carbs and amino acid balance, and I raised a group without cutting the protein with oats. And I ended up with a bunch of birds developing angel wing.

It's hardly peer-reviewed academic research, but then I tend to maintain a healthy skepticism for ivory tower research when it's held up against real-world experience, however macro it may be. So I come on here and people have pictures of their angel wing birds and most of the time (though, notably, not *always*) they have been feeding straight chick or duck starter without cutting the protein... then other people come on and say, "Naw, don't bother cutting the protein. It's probably not the protein causing the angel wing anyway. I've never had a problem in my entire experience raising two whole batches of ducklings so you won't either."

I realize that's not exactly what's happening here. But if I'm going to be convinced by talk of cysteine levels and methionine and absolute protein levels, it would be great to also hear what your scientists suggest, on a practical level, we do instead. Perhaps you could also tell us how many generations of domestic waterfowl have been raised using the alternate method, and what kinds of life spans and health records they demonstrate so we can compare the real-world success with that of Dave Holderread.

In the mean time, I'll go on adding oats to the duck feed after the first couple weeks and I'll go on raising angel-wing free birds. Perhaps some day I'll take the time to understand it all on a molecular level, but for now it's good enough in my book that it simply works.

 

[Boggy Bottom Bantams]

Quote:
Shawn ,
I have to agree with pretty much everything you have said here. Folks, plain and simple, listen to decades of hands on experience and literally 1000's upon 1000's of ducks raised .
Or listen to the theories and speculations. Some folks just want to learn the hard way though. Also to a degree, yes genetics of the parents do come into play, ones from angel wing prone lines yes will often be more susceptible than those from strong genetics that have never shown a problem. (what I feel wifzilla has, just a real good line and been lucky)

But in every thread on this site, every time protein is mentioned, those speaking of it get bashed and told they are wrong, it's this or that or the other but NOT protein.
I'm in Shawns boat here, PROVE IT.
our personal experiences with countless birds over many many years, as well as that of virtually every other major breeder with some years under their belt will tell you the same thing.

One believes it's carbs, ones says exercises, well that's fine, it maybe in part, but when everything leads to one pretty much for sure being a factor, dont say no that's not it, because honestly....you're not sure, that's why it's called a theory. As others have mentioned, go out and do some real world personal experiments over about a decade with 2000-3000 birds a year, document and publish all the findings, then come back and prove the theory to us.

In the mean time, pretty much every breeder with some age under their belt says protein is ONE of the the leading causes, NOTE I dont not say IT'S THE ONLY cause... But it's listed first in virtually every angel wing article you will read.

As for the commercial meat production thing, those people have their OWN feeds. Purina and all the various companies make the feed 99.9% of all of us buy. It is not the same as what the meat farmers feed, it is in fact made for the over all health of our birds. Unless you have time and a chemistry set, you have no other options to be sure they are getting all the nutrients they need. You have to think of that in an ethical and economical sense. Most all of us have to work and honestly just dont have time to prepare a zoological based diet of fresh this and chopped that. That's what Purina is for.

in short, no two people are going to agree 100% on this topic, reason being, everyone has seen it in birds and feel they know why.... be it time based year after year studing of their personal experiences in their flock, something some one read for Lord knows who on the web, or just a guess.. In short, have a theory, post away about it, that's fine, but dont tell others they are 100% wrong til you can 100% back it up

 

[Miss Lydia]

Quote:
I usually buy Quaker oats from Sams. don't get instant get regular. I mix it into my FR also scratch grains will work but I find if I mix it in with the FR they pick out the corn and the chikens get into it a get it completely out of the feeder. so they get feed SG separate.
I have always feed Fr to all my chickens ducks goose and ducklings and never had any problems. They also free range and eat alot of different things so maybe thats why.

 

[Amiga]

I got the idea to use oats from Storey's Guide to Raising Ducks. I wouldn't use the scratch - I think it's very starchy with less fiber.

I added oats to decrease the protein to 18 - 20% as the only starter feed I could get was turkey/waterfowl, at 26%. So I'd add 1 part oats to 4 parts feed, to get closer to 20%.

I think you'll be okay with what you have.

 

[TrystInn]

You can add scratch grains to bring the protein down.

 

[FenDruadin]

Oats or wheat will work just fine. Quaker oats, old fashioned or quick, it doesn't matter much, or you can even use horse oats. If you are feeding A LOT, then horse oats make sense because they're cheap per pound, but you have to buy them in 50-lb bags. And I concur--I work it gradually to the point that they're eating about 1/4 oats and 3/4 duckling feed. Good luck, and good job--the one time I failed to drop their protein, several of my girls developed angel wing, argh! So you're doing good to work on it now.

 

[AliciaM]

I had a couple with angel wing last year, but im pretty sure it was genetic. I found out parents and grandparents both had angel wing . I fed them non medicated chick starter... The ducklings before them were from different parents and fed the same and none developed angel wing..
This year, Ive started to use flock raiser and have already raised one batch without a problem.. I figured that after reading so much on protein id better try and get it down... just in case...and the other foods are good for them.. they like a variety..

Thanks.

 

[Speceider]

I will again ask, what are you doing to the essential amino acid ratio when you are "cutting" the protein. Yopu're throwing it out-of-balance, making the absolute protein level meaningless. Add oats, and you're actually reducing the usable protein levels to something more like 14-15% because of the changes in methionine+cysteine levels. I seriously doubt protein l;eveles are the only concern with angel wing. It's much more complicated than that. I beleieve, genetics (possibly affecting growth rates, and particularly wing growth rates). temperatures as they affect activity and exercise (My primary concern), and aggressive pulling by other birds. I don't believe is altering the nutrtional content of a diet, unless I know what the changes are and how they may affetc growth and development. Chganging total protein % doesn't meet that. What is the ME: protein ratio of the feed you are using? A MErotein % is considered optimal buy Scott and Dean. Milt Scott only spent 50 years studying poultry nutrition, and Dean managed the Cornell duck Research Center on Long Island.

Clint

 

[Wifezilla]

I feed 24% game bird feed to all my ducks. They also get greens and other natural duck diet items like minnows, duckweed, string algae, purslane, dandelions,etc... Cases of angel wing through 3 generations? Zero.

Angel wing is a carbohydrate problem from what I can see. NOT a protein problem. Recommendations for feeding ducks are based on keeping feed as cheap as possible until the ducks are old enough to slaughter. Not for long term health year after year. Higher protein level feeds allow ducks to live up to their full genetic potential, not just gain weight for butchering. The diet feed to breeders is much different than what is given to the "meat flock". I feed mine as breeders.

If you are still worried about protein levels or want to stretch your feed bill, you can add oats, but instead of mixing it with their feed, offer it free choice in a separate feeder. A ducks need for protein will vary and they can get what they need or don't need on their own without being forced in to it.

As for Clint's comment, it was not rude. Just to the point. I have no problem with people getting right to the point.