Diary & Notes ~ Air Cell Detatched SHIPPED Chicken Eggs for incubation and hatching

[Sally Sunshine]

First of all. Wow sally, so many links, so much information, so little time.....

NPR just had a lady on talking about how humans are having a harder time doing "long reading" because they spend too much time reading internet blurbs. She said that we no longer have the patience to read complicated material. Maybe that's why the abstracts are giving you problems.

Why do you want to disinfect eggs for incubation? My ducks literally roll their eggs around in the mud and thoroughly coat them in mud before sitting on them and they've got about a 98% hatch rate.

LOL blurbs,

I am having issues with weight loss, like pekin and muscovy hatchers have, but I have silky in.

I wet sanded and used the bleach ratios as hatcheries prooved not to hurt the egg, but I also seen an iodine solution but not sure on its ratios or what would be better for embryo. I know in the wild things are different, so is the air quality and everything else. Just trying to get weight loss correct in the eggs, because if I dont they will not hatch lol. I dont want to get bacteria in them, I just lost one at day 14 before I sanded them.

I think I got it now, they lost more since sanded, the new set I am weighing, they weigh in day 7 thurs I think.

 

[Sally Sunshine]

@HickoryHollow

here

 

[HickoryHollow]

@HickoryHollow

here

Ok, Let's try it here.....

1. What temp do you incubate at in your coolerbator?
2. What temp do you hatch at in your hatchers?
3. What do you feel the perfect humidity is for the first 18 days?
4. What do you feel the perfect humidity is in lock-down?

This coming Saturday, I will be putting 80 eggs in the new cabinet incubator I just built:

https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/872944/designing-an-incubator/40

It is holding temperatures within +/- 0.2 degrees. I just love it for that.....but I can't seem to get the humidity above 60%. Unless what you tell me is different, I think that 60% is high enough, but I sure hope so......

My first hatch I used a borrowed LG. I had some temp swings, I think mostly due to the incubator being in an unheated workshop. I used the dry hatch method once I read about it, but for the first 2 or 3 days, I had water in the channels of the incubator. I didn't add any after that until lock-down. I then added water and wet paper towels and the humidity went to 70% for most of lock-down.

Out of 26 eggs, 3 were infertal, 2 had cells started but quit, 18 were fully developed dead chicks, and 3 hatched. I did eggtopsies and found all the dead chicks in the same condition. There was a good air cell, but the chicks were "butt up" with their beaks tucked under a wing (head toward the narrow end of the egg).There were no internal pips in any of these. If I understand what I read properly, it sounds like the chicks got too big too soon and couldn't flip in the egg to pip at the top. Caused by too high of humidity? Does any of that make sense?

I darn sure don't want to do that again!

Thanks for you time. I know there is plenty of information on the forum, but sometimes it if very conflicting. I know you are successful and want to try doing everything exactly as you do and see If I can be as successful as you have been.

Thanks again,
Tim

Sally Sunshine
Today at 6:38 am
Hearsay will kill your hatch every time, just saying....
All the answers I have for you below and the links for the abstracts and studies are in the article I wrote https://www.backyardchickens.com/a/hatching-eggs-101 and most I have had to research out of my own mistakes. It takes a bit to have a good eye for air cells, it takes time to understand the hatching process, key are the following.....

Ventilation see suggestions in that section
Turning 45 degree no less and many times a day and three is minimum and you will see tons of malpositions with just three times. I havent had but two since I use the cabinet incubator, amazingly I proved it to myself turn more than three times!
Temps have to be spot on, Calibration is KEY! Shuffle eggs around throughout incubation because even the best incubators have warm and cold spots. NEVER NEVER during the first 18 days run below 99.5 NEVER!
Humidity NOT A SET NUMBER NEVER EVER NEVER! its all about the weight loss and size of air cell in the egg!


First things first,
I always request how I want my eggs collected, stored, shipped, SEE Ozexpats letter to egg shippers in the article. THIS IS SO IMPORTANT I COULD SCREAM IT!
See question 3 for best timeframe/egg age to set young flocks eggs
I only settle eggs for 12-16 hours even rolling air cell eggs
When set I treat EVERY EGG DIFFERENTLY that is shipped depending on its air cell condition (see the Shipped eggs section in the article for details)
Any eggs that I plan to store longer than 7 days I put into a cool location, LITTLE END UP and in a STYROFOAM egg carton closed and NO turning during storage, just keep humidity in the room as close to 70 as you can keep it, I hang a damp towel in one of our garage closets which is cool in the winter, in the summer they will move to another closet.

1. What temp do you incubate at in your coolerbator? I run 100-100.5 in my cabinet cooler CALIBRATION IS KEY for both hygros and thermos, it is worse to run at 99 than it is to run at 101 and I seen it over and over, HOWEVER I have also seen bloody open navels with high temps over 101 that early hatch day 19-20.
CALIBRATION CALIBRATION CALIBRATION!

2. What temp do you hatch at in your hatchers? I hatch in the reg coolers, I move them from the cabinet cooler bator about day 16-17 and keep reg coolerbators at 99.5 running and day 18 I add a little warm water estimate 55-60% humidity and then I candle often day 18-19 looking for internals when I see first internals I drop to 98- 98.5 and up humidity to about 70-72% (this may sound strange but my window on my coolerbators tell me when I have the right humidity, two of the corners of plexi will show just a hint of condensation. And then when they start to hatch I get just a bit more)

Researchers have found that lowering temperatures will prolong incubation,
HOWEVER it is favourable to do so at the end of incubation.
Day 19 & 20 Temp Min 98.0 Max 98.5
Day 21 Temp Min 97 Max 98.0
for more information please refer here:
http://www.hubbardbreeders.com/managementguides/Incubation guide (english).pdf​

3. What do you feel the perfect humidity is for the first 18 days? There is no set number for humidity EVER, you need to judge with what eggs your loading up, example shipped eggs can be up to 10-14 days old until you get them and air cells are huge which means there was already water/weight loss, you will need more humidity for them, fresh eggs from young flock are best held for 7 days before setting, because they have little to no air cell and its simply proven that they will hatch better aged and their internal contents again are different from an old hens eggs.

Do you understand what a chicken "clutch" is? its a natures way of naturally aging the eggs so the hen can sit on them and hatch in a timely manner. Her day 1 of clutch egg will be totally different inside structure than day 5-7 egg. It very interesting to study how all that works, it gives you much better understanding for incubating. Again I threw tons of links in the article for reference materials for everyone who wants to learn and understand more, explore the articles links!

I highly suggest weighing of eggs and NOT judging air cells for weight loss for beginners, however even this you need to keep in mind age of the eggs and what the air cells look like when you get them. It takes alot of practice and time to get a "FEEL" or "EYE" for air cells.

Also there are in fact breed differences and weight loss, I wouldn't let my serama go with low humidity during incubation because they don't have much weight to loose and in the end if you dry incubate they simply die in there of either adhesion or just lack of liquids.


4. What do you feel the perfect humidity is in lock-down? Lockdown again depends on the weight loss, if I screwed up and air cells look too big I use more humidity. When "draw down" and internal pipping occurs and the air cells look huge I will up the humidity to 70- 74 and I hatch so many at this point my humidity goes to lower 90's easily with that many wet chicks hatching at the same time. VENTILATION at the end is key! never close vents to adjust humidity EVER



5. Out of 26 eggs, 3 were infert, 2 had cells started but quit, 18 were fully developed dead chicks, and 3 hatched. I did eggtopsies and found all the dead chicks in the same condition. There was a good air cell, but the chicks were "butt up" with their beaks tucked under a wing (head toward the narrow end of the egg).There were no internal pips in any of these. If I understand what I read properly, it sounds like the chicks got too big too soon and couldn't flip in the egg to pip at the top. Caused by too high of humidity? Does any of that make sense? Were the chicks in fact large? a big wet chick sorta looks big and somewhat mushy, you can see more skin on their backs at hatch and less feathering or short feathering. How much water or liquids were inside with the chicks on breakout analysis? Have you found the WHAT WENT WRONG section and dove into the links to read and look at images to compare your hatch break out with? is this what you feel by looking at them happened? KEEP IN MIND WHAT I STATED ABOUT LOW TEMPS! I would run a bator at 101 long before I chose to go to 99 during the first 18 days! The worst thing you can do is run low temps, next is high humidity and I can go on and on...


6. It is holding temperatures within +/- 0.2 degrees. I just love it for that.....but I can't seem to get the humidity above 60%. Unless what you tell me is different, I think that 60% is high enough, but I sure hope so...... This is why I wanted to stick with a cooler, they hold that humidity very well as they are not of material like wood that sucks the humidity up. ARE you sure your spot on temps all over that bator, back forth up and down? ARE YOU SURE your getting the right humidity reading? show me what your doing to bring humidity up please, remember surface area is what raises humidity NOT DEPTH.


This coming Saturday, I will be putting 80 eggs in the new cabinet incubator I just built: fresh, shipped ? breeds?


Also would like your permission to move this onto the diary incubation thread as it can help others at some point, or you can copy paste it all over and I will see it and respond on that thread.

 

[HickoryHollow]

Were the chicks in fact large? Yes, at least it seemed so to me....

a big wet chick sorta looks big and somewhat mushy, you can see more skin on their backs at hatch and less feathering or short feathering. How much water or liquids were inside with the chicks on breakout analysis? There seemed to be a lot of liquid inside the membrane, but none in the air cell.

Have you found the WHAT WENT WRONG section and dove into the links to read and look at images to compare your hatch break out with? No, I had not found the "what went wrong" section but sure will look for it now!

is this what you feel by looking at them happened?

ARE YOU SURE your getting the right humidity reading? show me what your doing to bring humidity up please, I have a small loaf pan full of water under the fan and between the bulbs. I moved 22 eggs from the LG to the new incubator for lock-down. To raise the humidity more for lockdown, I also added 2 small trays of water 6"X12" each in the bottom of the inc. in front of the air return vent. I have a hygrometer in one of the trays, and a digital hygrometer on it's way from china.....

None of the pics I have with me show the bottom trays, but here is what I have......

 

[Sally Sunshine]

Were the chicks in fact large? Yes, at least it seemed so to me....

a big wet chick sorta looks big and somewhat mushy, you can see more skin on their backs at hatch and less feathering or short feathering. How much water or liquids were inside with the chicks on breakout analysis? There seemed to be a lot of liquid inside the membrane, but none in the air cell.

Have you found the WHAT WENT WRONG section and dove into the links to read and look at images to compare your hatch break out with? No, I had not found the "what went wrong" section but sure will look for it now!

is this what you feel by looking at them happened?

ARE YOU SURE your getting the right humidity reading? show me what your doing to bring humidity up please, I have a small loaf pan full of water under the fan and between the bulbs. I moved 22 eggs from the LG to the new incubator for lock-down. To raise the humidity more for lockdown, I also added 2 small trays of water 6"X12" each in the bottom of the inc. in front of the air return vent. I have a hygrometer in one of the trays, and a digital hygrometer on it's way from china.....

None of the pics I have with me show the bottom trays, but here is what I have......

So you did the salt calibration on hygros? Only thing I can tell you is try sponges as they have holes and allows more surface area than a flat surface on the pans. But only if you need to up it.

 

[rbaker0345]

LOL blurbs,

I am having issues with weight loss, like pekin and muscovy hatchers have, but I have silky in.

I wet sanded and used the bleach ratios as hatcheries prooved not to hurt the egg, but I also seen an iodine solution but not sure on its ratios or what would be better for embryo. I know in the wild things are different, so is the air quality and everything else. Just trying to get weight loss correct in the eggs, because if I dont they will not hatch lol. I dont want to get bacteria in them, I just lost one at day 14 before I sanded them.

I think I got it now, they lost more since sanded, the new set I am weighing, they weigh in day 7 thurs I think.

Sorry, I didn't realize you were sanding. That does change things. I found I had to sand my thicker eggs and my darker eggs. Weighing eggs has been so much more useful than watching the air cells. What about disinfecting in something like oxine, isn't it based on vitamin C? If you do betadine, you'll have to make it really dilute. Oh, I know you can gargle with a chlorhexidine solution, that might be gentle enough for eggs.

 

[lizanne]

That book "Egg Incubation: Its Effects on Embryonic Development in Birds and Reptiles", has some great info in it. -- I like the know the "Why" of things. I looked it up on Ebay, and they want over $100 for it!!! The link on "shaking up eggs" was interesting too. Last year I hatched a bunch of Wyandottes that were shipped to me from Ohio. The box had been handled a little roughly and most had detached air cells. When we processed one of the boys we noticed he was completely rumpless. It's spine ended between it's hip bones. I thought it was weird at the time, but maybe that explains it.

 

[lizanne]

Holy Cheese Balls --- That is a lot of turning. Would that be constant movement?

http://www.hubbardbreeders.com/managementguides/Incubation guide (english).pdf

"Robertson I. (1961b) found that the turning frequency (using a base angle of 45°) had a notable
effect on hatch and determined that a turning frequency of 96 times per day compared to fewer
number of turns per day gave the best results. Turning as often as 480 times daily only slightly
decreased hatch results.

Elibol O. and Brake J. (2003) showed similar results. By comparing different frequencies of turning
between the 3rd and the 11th day of incubation, they found that a turning frequency of 96 times per
day gave the best results compared to frequencies of 2 or 4 times less per day"

 

[Sally Sunshine]

Holy Cheese Balls --- That is a lot of turning. Would that be constant movement?

http://www.hubbardbreeders.com/managementguides/Incubation guide (english).pdf

"Robertson I. (1961b) found that the turning frequency (using a base angle of 45°) had a notable
effect on hatch and determined that a turning frequency of 96 times per day compared to fewer
number of turns per day gave the best results. Turning as often as 480 times daily only slightly
decreased hatch results.

Elibol O. and Brake J. (2003) showed similar results. By comparing different frequencies of turning
between the 3rd and the 11th day of incubation, they found that a turning frequency of 96 times per
day gave the best results compared to frequencies of 2 or 4 times less per day"

I know right!

 

[subhanalah]

That's why I love my egg turners!