Difficult horse decision *UPDATE*

[luvarabhorses]

The impression I got about Cara's riding is that she heads out frequently on the trail alone. This mare seems to be pretty herd bound and lacks self confidence alone which a lot of horses do. In that case, it's important the horse is really attached to you as another member of the herd and confident in your abilities as herd leader.
Whenever I start training a horse I basically have it follow another one and that makes the young horse comfortable with the whole absorption of what's going on. I'm not sure any amount of groundwork is going to make that mare what Cara wants.
IMO, if she really wants to make it work she needs to ride with someone else for a while. After many rides she needs to have that person leave them and Cara and Lucy walk back by themselves. She has to be willing to hop off and walk next to Lucy if she becomes frantic or whatever and keep working on whoa, even walking next to her. That's what I do anyway. I use a lot of voice commands. None of the big trainers do but it works for me. If she had someone start riding with her, Lucy would act a lot better (I think) then if they disappeared at different points Lucy would gain some confidence on her own.

 

[Cara]

I have only ridden Lucy outside once, the first time when she bucked. I've only ridden her 3 or 4 times since we bought her. My husband takes her to move cattle, where she is with other horses but they are often out of sight, or rides her by herself in the arena.

I understand that she is more than likely never going to be my kind of horse. Even if she behaved perfectly from now on, i've seen what she can and will do and I won't ever be able to forget that. With my confidence level that's almost a lost cause.

The intention isn't to try and work with her until I feel happy riding her, but instead to fix her issues so that I can feel confident about her being of use to someone and leading a productive life. As bad as the horse market is, I doubt we could currently sell her for even half of what we paid for her. Financially speaking, that also means we can't buy a good alternative. I'm sorry to say that when we or the ranch have listed horses cheaply in the past, we've had a lot of inquiries from the wrong type of buyer. Maybe she's just a #$%$#, maybe she has real issues. Whatever the case, I don't want it on my conscience that she might be mistreated or injure someone, for my sake as much as hers. Equally, it's a lot easier to sell a good horse than a rotten one.

She is only four, and she's not too young to start from scratch again. If she was 8, 10, 12 yrs old then yes, I could see the logic in giving up.

Probably the biggest reason of all, and it's hard for me to admit this... If I have a 'problem horse', I have a good reason not to ride her and nobody is going to give me a hard time about it. If I have a good horse, I have to deal with my fear issues.

 

[Cara]

I'm pleased, and somewhat surprised to say, that Lucy and I are doing a whole lot better

For the most part i've overcome my fear of horses in the strangest way - cutting. My stepmother-in-law tore her ACL a couple of months ago and cannot ride, but had already signed up for a few ranch horse versatility clinics. She asked if i'd like to go in her place and ride her mare, and I was scared stiff at the thought. I really wanted to though, so I went for it. I think having the cattle to focus on rather than the horse helped, as did knowing that if I could stay on while her mare jumped left, right and center, I wasn't quite as vulnerable as I felt. It was just too much fun too, I didn't want to fall off and miss out on anything!

I came home feeling quite a bit tougher, and with a new resolve to straighten Lucy's problems out. I wanted to be able to ride my horse there and not hers (and not only to stop the nagging!). I surprised myself the first day when I got on her after she'd bucked and reared with my husband. Perhaps it was 50% bravery, 50% proving a point to him that he was making her mad, but we had no problems. The first step was to forget about any kind of bit, and go back to using a mechanical hackamore. I also decided not to ride her in a pen anymore as that frustrates her, and to focus on something with a purpose and that she is good at instead. My husband has been taking her to gather and brand cattle, and she loves dragging calves to the fire. I've been out riding on her twice by myself this week, and other than being a little fresh the second time she was perfect. If I feel myself or her becoming tense, I find an obstacle for us to tackle. She will go over anything I ask her, and if we are in some rocks she will wait patiently while I figure out the best path, and then go exactly where I ask her to. Strangely enough she loves to open and close gates. And I can turn left anytime I feel like it!!!

Strangely enough, i'm learning more from her than I learnt in years from lots of 'good' horses. She does get mad, but not because she is mean-spirited. She is just too smart not to have something to think about, and I think she is lacking in confidence. She was also most likely in pain from her teeth, which I feel terrible about. We're both learning to trust each other now. She had her teeth floated and the vet did say that they were awful, which was a relief. She let me hold her mouth open while he did it! He had me worried with the question 'how old is this horse?', but he was just intrigued by her unusual teeth, he wasn't about to tell me she was 20 something years old! I haven't gone back to using a bit yet, but in time I will, I just don't want to set her back again at the moment.

She does still have her episodes, and is not perfect by any stretch, but there is light at the end of the tunnel. They always seem to happen when she tries to anticipate what she will be asked to do and gets it wrong. Typical female I guess, always having to be right.

The difficult decision is resolved though; I wouldn't trade her for all the money in the world.

 

[Chickerdoodle13]

I'm so glad you and Lucy are doing better! My dad and I had to face a similar decision with a gelding this past winter. With a little bit of work and a change of feed, he is turning out to be a good horse. This horse that we were ready to drop at the auction is now a horse that my dad wouldn't trade for anything. He's far from the perfect horse, but he's defintiely a lot more workable now. In our case, the round pen was a huge success!

I've always wanted to cut cows, but there aren't too many places around here that do it. I guess I'll just have to move out west some day

 

[MaggieRae]

Cara- I have a question for you. Are our horses siblings?

I love my horse to death, but boy, we've had some issues.
He likes to GO. Go, go, and go some more.

After nearly a year and a half *such a short time in reality* we've finally got through it. He had a lot of the same behaviors as your mare seems to. He prefers the old fashioned crow hop-rear-crow hop.

If you have any questions, feel free to ask.
I'm so glad you two are doing better and you didn't give up on her!

That just made my day!!!

 

[lockedhearts]

I think you are approaching this in the right way. Since she is doing better in a hackamore it sounds like maybe someone has been rough on her face.
I train Wester Pleasure horses and I try very hard not to get in their face. I ride totally off my seat and legs. This is not to say I have never corrected a horse by pulling their head around, but I am not heavyhanded at all.
Sounds like what this mare needs.
I also went through the fear about 10 years about my stallion threw me at a horse show and I brokemy collar bone in 3 places, it took me forever to get over this. He was normally sweet and easy going, this was not his fault but I was afraid.
I finally got over it and made myself ride him bareback for awhile to regain my confidence and his.
I would still, at her age lunge her before riding, it never hurts and loosens them up. Sounds like you are making some good progress.

 

[Cara]

Yes I always lunge her before I get on, just to be sure she is listening and to gauge how she's feeling that day before I get on! The old owners used nothing but the mechanical hackamore, she was being ridden in a ring snaffle when they got her as a two year old. She does have a very sensitive head so is easy to control in the hackamore, but the dental issue went unnoticed since they never used a bit. We didn't have a mechanical hackamore so went back to the snaffle.

One of the older cowboys here mentioned that whenever he has a horse with a mouth shaped like hers, it is always very sensitive (her mouth is quite shallow). I don't think she has ever been mistreated, she is extremely easy to handle on the ground and likes to be around people. I think the pain from her teeth with a bit was 80% of the problem. Since we used a bit from the day we got her, it caused problems in the relationship between us all. She still has a temper, but it doesn't show nearly as often and it is in quite different ways. She wants to please, and gets mad when she anticipates wrongly and is corrected. It seems that mares tend to be a little more short-fused than geldings anyway.

 

[CountryMom]

That is so great to hear. It is amazing what a good well trained horse can teach you like the one you competed on. Now you can take what you learned and aply that to your mare. And yes, mares are always more tempermental. I think you also probably learned your seat and not to hang on the face of a horse...which is generally what I see happen. Then getting back on your mare she sensed that.

As for shallow mouths, they are really my favorite. It takes a whole lot less pressure to get your message across to the horse if they have a sensitive mouth. And if you have learned not to hang on the bit then you and the horse will enjoy your rides. It really takes a lot less effort to ride by your seat and not pull on the reins all the time. And if you are not hanging on the bit then a big bit or a little bit won't be an issues. And with teeth issues out of the way (and remembr to manage them semi anually if she was that bad) you will have a better ride.

Good Luck and good to hear a sucess story!

 

[dixygirl]

Take a look at this video called NIGHTMARE PONY

My girl is also barn sour. I had difficulty getting her out of the paddock into the field too... And she didnt want to move, same situation.
I got her a Mikmar Training bit and it was like magic. I could FEEL the difference in her responsiveness and obedience IMMEDIATELY.
Now I go out with her with no problems at all. So much so that I have even got her good enough to go bitless now. And it is all due to the Mikmar Training bit helping me to communicate with her better and in a way that she could immediately understand. Feeling that control gave me confidence to ride her and know I can halt her and she wont buck. Now and then when I use a bitless rope bridle she will still misbehave and try to run off with me. I just go and pull out the trusted old Mikmar Training and she snaps right back into shape.

They recommended that I get her their new design lighter Flexion COMBO bit instead now. I think I WILL as soon as I can. I know I sound like an advertisement. I wish I did get something for recommending this but I don't. It just works. Plain and simple.

http://www.mikmar.com/products.html

 

[lockedhearts]

Quote:
Some people would disagree but an old saying goes " You can ask a stallion, tell a gelding, but you must never ask a mare"
Most mares are not mean, and over the years of training I use the word "maretitude" sounds like you are figuring out what does and does not work for her and that is the key. Horses are individuals and what works for one may not work for another, knowing your horse is key.