Discussion of Legbar Standard of Perfection for -Alternative- Legbars - SOP discussion

[ChicKat]

pretty! I would second these colors for the alternative legbar, with your added comments. Would anyone else consider the hackle and saddle mismatched? I only mention that because I like the way they look, they seem mismatched based on previous discussions, and there has been some concern that the APA will not look favorably on a mismatch…not that APA approval of the alternative legbar is a priority at this time...

Hi Sol2go,

Yes, the Welbars above appear to have a different saddle and hackle to a degree.

Thanks for the picture of the boy chick... Mine is a girl - so she will not have wing-triangles like a cockerel.

When I enlarge the Legbar from the same UK Poultry show,

My eye detects a mismatch to a lesser degree. It is interesting too what the larger tail feathers and the breast feathers show on this guy. His barring is very muted IMO.

Remember it isn't in the SOP - nor to my understanding is it planned to require a match for saddle and hackle feathers. I believe the photo of the Applegarth Cockerel/Cock has a mismatch of hackle and saddle feathers that is more evident.

Increasingly - I am thinking that not only is a second SOP for crele not necessary, it would be counter productive.

 

[ChicKat]

Male - Color

Back: Cream, barred with dark gray, some chestnut permissible.


Male - Type

Back: Moderately broad at the shoulders, narrowing slightly toward the tail, long in length, flat, sloping slightly to the tail.




Nice examples in both cockerels of the flatness of the back as a match to the SOP. Of course the pixelation is occurring as the photos get segmented. It helps me to see a photo example of the back - It is quite definitely NOT a U-shape.

 

[chicken pickin]

Since the topic of head quality was brought up a few post back I thought I would post a few of my CL.

Here are a few pictures of my pullet that I would consider to be crow headed (someone correct me if I am wrong, maybe her face or beak are just too long). Due to her head Im not sure I even want to breed her but I like her neck and crest color and would like to see what comes from her. Im pretty new to breeding but Im pretty sure your not supposed to breed forward crow headed birds so Im not sure where I will go with her.




This is my Rees Male who I also think does not have a head of fine quality. His head seems smallish in proportion to his body, or maybe his neck is not correct, wide at the top giving the appearance of a smaller head.



This is a pullet (Rees) that I consider to have a head of fine quality. The head seems to be a nice shape(round not long) also meduim in size and proportioned to her body also the beak isn't too long.







And here is my cock bird that I also consider to have a head of fine quality it seems more medium sized and proportioned to his body than my Rees male I posted above

Thoughts are welcome. I myself am still learning how to interpret the SOP so I might have missed something.

 

[chicken pickin]

Color - Male

Neck - Hackle Cream sparsely barred with gray
Shoulder - cream barred with dark gray some chestnut permissible
Front of neck - same as breast

Shape - Male

neck - Long and Well covered with hackle feathers

Neck hackles !!! The easiest and the hardest - maybe - perhaps also the most controversial.
In addition to the Applegarth bird, the winner of the Poultry show in the UK pictured here. I would say both are cream - and I would also say that the UK bird is not probably 'over saturated' - and we only do have the imperfection of photos displayed here -- but the earlobe is white as a comparison and the woman's hand (finger) look like normal skin tones. So here is part of the 'it depends upon how you define cream' dilemma. I believe that there is a range and both birds fit inside it and are correct for their color according to both UK and USA SOPs

I like how you are going step by step through the SOP using comparative pictures. This is a good example of 2 male birds that seeming fit into the SOP but color-wise on different ends of the Cream Spectrum neither seemingly wrong. This is where the individual breeder needs to decide to the best of their ability which end of the Cream spectrum is correct for them.

I don't mean to deter your process of going through the SOP step by step but the 2 males above made me think of my 2 pullets today.

I have an example of 2 pullets and I will post their pics below, that are both cream and come from cream parents. The difference is that one pullet is on the very light side of cream looking almost silver/white and the other pullet on the way other end looking like what I would describe as a butter color.





To my own personal taste Im tending to like the look of the butter colored hackles on the females. I still need to hatch many more males before I see what my possible ideal cream for a male is, its nice to be able to see real life examples right in front of my own two eyes. I had one male that had slight creamy butter hackles and he was lovely(but not a good personality for me so he left). We will see if I get more like him.

 

[chicken pickin]

Male - Color

Back: Cream, barred with dark gray, some chestnut permissible.


Male - Type

Back: Moderately broad at the shoulders, narrowing slightly toward the tail, long in length, flat, sloping slightly to the tail.




Nice examples in both cockerels of the flatness of the back as a match to the SOP. Of course the pixelation is occurring as the photos get segmented. It helps me to see a photo example of the back - It is quite definitely NOT a U-shape.

It is good to know that the U shape or swoop from back to tail isn't what we are looking for then, I was unclear on that. No the hard part, to get the back and tail angles correct

.

Im sure you will get to the females SOP going step by step but with them am I correct that we looking for more of a sweep from back to tail? Not a U shaped back but the back feathers carrying up the tail giving the nook between back and tail a curve not an abrupt angle like the males?

 

[ChicKat]

I like how you are going step by step through the SOP using comparative pictures. This is a good example of 2 male birds that seeming fit into the SOP but color-wise on different ends of the Cream Spectrum neither seemingly wrong. This is where the individual breeder needs to decide to the best of their ability which end of the Cream spectrum is correct for them.

I don't mean to deter your process of going through the SOP step by step but the 2 males above made me think of my 2 pullets today.

I have an example of 2 pullets and I will post their pics below, that are both cream and come from cream parents. The difference is that one pullet is on the very light side of cream looking almost silver/white and the other pullet on the way other end looking like what I would describe as a butter color.





To my own personal taste Im tending to like the look of the butter colored hackles on the females. I still need to hatch many more males before I see what my possible ideal cream for a male is, its nice to be able to see real life examples right in front of my own two eyes. I had one male that had slight creamy butter hackles and he was lovely(but not a good personality for me so he left). We will see if I get more like him.

IMO Your photos here are beyond perfect! Excellent examples of just what you said...and the added background of snow gives white to contrast with. Add to that they are in the same light, same camera etc. Really a superb example.

Just like you, I prefer the butter look in hens hackles. I think I would/will prefer more butter in the males too.

Since the whole purpose of this thread is discussion! This is EXACTLY the kind of addition that adds value. THANKS!

 

[ChicKat]

Since the topic of head quality was brought up a few post back I thought I would post a few of my CL.

Here are a few pictures of my pullet that I would consider to be crow headed (someone correct me if I am wrong, maybe her face or beak are just too long). Due to her head Im not sure I even want to breed her but I like her neck and crest color and would like to see what comes from her. Im pretty new to breeding but Im pretty sure your not supposed to breed forward crow headed birds so Im not sure where I will go with her.




This is my Rees Male who I also think does not have a head of fine quality. His head seems smallish in proportion to his body, or maybe his neck is not correct, wide at the top giving the appearance of a smaller head.



This is a pullet (Rees) that I consider to have a head of fine quality. The head seems to be a nice shape(round not long) also meduim in size and proportioned to her body also the beak isn't too long.







And here is my cock bird that I also consider to have a head of fine quality it seems more medium sized and proportioned to his body than my Rees male I posted above

Thoughts are welcome. I myself am still learning how to interpret the SOP so I might have missed something.

Glad you posted these gorgeous pictures! Really insightful comments too.

Proportionally - I think that the Rees line roosters do seem to have smaller heads. Maybe because their combs tend to be larger and curve, and this is where to some folks that may be a look they perfer. ?? That is where taste comes in . I agree with you too that your grown cockbird exemplifies a fine head.

Here is one of the photos that I thought may show a crow head..or boarderline crow head in my flock

I guess because this was takein in blistering heat..she is panting..and her open beak makes her beak look wider at the base. Add to that the crest and the type of folded comb and I wonder if it is a perfectly normal head - that isn't 'overly refined'. :O) Or

 

[ChicKat]

When I follow the line of the head based on the very bottom of the comb at the back - I DON'T think that this pullet has an example of crow-headed. She does have a very strong beak! I would think that a strong beak would help survival -- tear into those grasshopers etc. -- The crest fools the eye to thinking that the head is shallower than it actually is IMO.

ETA - you just may have to cull this pullet and send her to me.

 

[KPenley]

Chicken pickin, I agree with your balance analysis of your birds heads. Based on Head Points (Steup) a balanced head had the same length from the bottom of the comb to the top of the wattles, as the tip of the beak to the front of the earlobes.

That's not to say that your first pullet is crow headed, she is a bit pinched but seems to have good development in the wattles and comb, but the elongated shape of her head would indicate that she will not promote healthy layers in your flock. I wouldn't make any hard and fast choices until she grows in though.

P.s. The Cream Legbar club has gone through the original British and proposed draft Standards between threads here on BYC and club meeting notes if anyone has the interest or time to go through past discussions.

 

[ChicKat]

It is good to know that the U shape or swoop from back to tail isn't what we are looking for then, I was unclear on that. No the hard part, to get the back and tail angles correct

.

Im sure you will get to the females SOP going step by step but with them am I correct that we looking for more of a sweep from back to tail? Not a U shaped back but the back feathers carrying up the tail giving the nook between back and tail a curve not an abrupt angle like the males?

We should definitely walk-thru the females after the males.

Love your question about tail angle on female. As I look at all the CLs from 'back-in-the-day' --- I wonder if the tail angles specified actually DESCRIBE the true living breathing birds, or if they are rather an ideal to be aimed at. I don't see many tail angles from Punnett's day that are a match. Maybe it is my old eyes? ;O)

Just as a comparison with my Blue Isbars that haven't got a standard (that I'm aware of) -- I'm of the opinion that idealized is wonderful, but I wish that I had a realistic description of quality Isbar to help select for breeding purposes etc.

Since people may have not been participating in an earlier walk through as mentioned by KPenley, and since we have probably learned more since that time and since it was published, this probably is helpful to a lot of people. Kes, is the walk-thru something that can be easily referenced? Is it in an old Club Newsletter?

One thing that would also help people presently working with the Breed and those that will come along later, is if we had either a booklet of a walk-thru or incorporated it into a Cream Legbar Club Handbook - since the current Handbook is pretty out-of-date.