Dog Suggestions

[cmjust0]

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I guess dog sizes get rearranged when you add a true LGD to the pack. We've got a lab mix that probably weighs 80lb+, and I've come to think of her as a small dog.

I see what you're saying, though.

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If you've got one that works, great...but there are a ton of others out there that would kill every chicken they could get their mouth around.

To recommend a type of dog that works out well sometimes and does horribly sometimes -- even in equal parts, which I doubt -- is just bad advice, IMHO..

I also realize that you didn't recommend a herding dog....thing is, I'm kinda speaking toward those who do.

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I used to believe that too, but now that I own a guardian and have actually had the opportunity to see what thousands of years of selective breeding is capable of producing....it's the breed.

We didn't have to train our LGD to do squat -- zero, zilch, nothing -- and not only do I trust him 100% with everything in the barnyard, I feel 1000% better knowing he's out there 24/7. A true LGD doesn't just incidentally keep things away with its presence; if something decides to come in and test a LGD, they kill it.

There's a whole world of difference between that and "my dog doesn't hurt the chickens......"

 

[LA~Poulet]

I would avoid any breed known to be overly excitable or yippy.

We have two mutts, one is a rat terrier/lab mix (we think) and one is supposedly a pyr mix. The Pyr mix has absolutely ZERO prey drive... she watches the kids, our chickens, etc. The only thing she chases off are 'non-family wildlife'-squirrels, rabbits, etc.

We have had chickens & quail in the past with golden retrievers, chesapeakes, even dachshunds... I think if you raise any sensible breed around them and teach them well, you shouldn't have to worry. Especially if you get a guardian or non-hunting type breed.

Look on petfinder for dogs in your area, maybe avoid the small breeds-I bet you could find an awesome one needing a home. Our pyr mix came from petfinder/CL, she was about 6-8 months old and couldn't be a more wonderful pet.

 

[cmjust0]

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Misconception #1....it's not about "eating the flock" to a herding dog.. It's about trying to run them down when they scatter, and if that requires nipping, gripping, or outright biting, that's what they'll do. My experience tells me that if you have a good herding dog that's not been very, very carefully trained (read that, broken of it's natural tendencies...), that's precisely what it's going to do the moment you turn your back..

By the way, what experience do you have with herding breeds? Do you own a herding breed dog?

If not, read this . In fact, anyone believing the hype and thinking of getting a herding dog for their chickens should read it, lest their be even more herding breed dogs ending up in rescue programs on account of doing exactly what they've been bred to do.

For what it's worth, I have two border collies, a GSD, a lab mix, a terrier mix (feist), and a Sarplaninac LGD. I know their tendencies and their temperaments well. I know very well how awesome the herding breeds are, and I love mine dearly.

I just happen to know -- for a fact -- that a herding dog worth its salt won't naturally be suited to working around chickens.

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Protected "as in" herded?!?!?

Glaring misconception #2...herding and guarding are NOT the same thing! Herding is herding, and guarding is guarding!

Guardians move with the herd and kill predators -- they do not move the herd. When these breeds were being developed, if a guardian were to move or confine the herd unnaturally, it would have been culled.

Herding dogs, on the other hand, move the herd at the shepherds direction. If you've ever seen border collies work with a real shepherd, they listen for whistles and calls and hand signals. The best of the best are the ones that watch every single move the shepherd makes and act solely at his discretion...reason being, no shepherd wants his herd dog making decisions for him!

As for guardians, the best of the best won't hardly listen to a word their master says...reason being, they're absolutely expected to make decisions in the field. If they're too dependent on the master to call them to attack, they're worthless, because they're expected to protect the herd in the master's absence. A guardian that won't kill a predator unless directed to do so is NOT a guardian..

Bottom line...herding and guarding breeds couldn't be more different, and you're talking to someone who owns BOTH.


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A true LGD will stand up to whatever comes its way. Herdsmen in Africa use Anatolians to guard goats against Cheetahs, and Sarplaninacs have been known to attack and kill wolves and bears in the mountains of the former Yugoslavia.

So...answer -- a true LGD, or it will die trying. Multiple LGDs are certainly better, which is why we're planning to add to our pack soon.

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Dachsunds were bred to hunt and kill badgers, so yeah...they're a lot tougher than people give them credit for. I find it interesting that you would point that out, considering how little stock you seem to put into the whole notion of certain dogs being bred to do certain things..

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First of all, no, I won't back off because there are already TOO MANY HERDING DOGS IN POUNDS AND RESCUES -- and it's advice like yours that puts them there..

"Everybody told me I should get a border collie/aussie/GSD, and now it's killing my chickens!"...time to dump it off on someone.

Second of all, yeah...the world might end tomorrow if a minpin ends up as a guard dog. The minpin's world, that is, when a coyote walks up and breaks its scrawny little neck.


Ya know....maybe you don't take this seriously -- and that's fine -- but I do take it seriously. All I ask is that if you don't take it seriously, and you don't have the experience necessary to be making suggestions...don't make suggestions.

 

[chooniecat]

My dog is 10 yo spayed(neutering is important anyways so then your dog is not nearly as likely to roam) siberian husky(predominantly)I got at the shelter at 10 wo and she learned early that chasing ANYTHING is unacceptable
and she is "mommyish" to the chicks. just her presence keeps critters away. it depends on your willingness to observe/train your WHATEVER k9 you get. certainly pyrenees are naturally excellent. just very large and hairy and in need of more grooming than some.

 

[Firefly]

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I guess dog sizes get rearranged when you add a true LGD to the pack. We've got a lab mix that probably weighs 80lb+, and I've come to think of her as a small dog.

I see what you're saying, though.

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If you've got one that works, great...but there are a ton of others out there that would kill every chicken they could get their mouth around.

To recommend a type of dog that works out well sometimes and does horribly sometimes -- even in equal parts, which I doubt -- is just bad advice, IMHO..

I also realize that you didn't recommend a herding dog....thing is, I'm kinda speaking toward those who do.

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I used to believe that too, but now that I own a guardian and have actually had the opportunity to see what thousands of years of selective breeding is capable of producing....it's the breed.

We didn't have to train our LGD to do squat -- zero, zilch, nothing -- and not only do I trust him 100% with everything in the barnyard, I feel 1000% better knowing he's out there 24/7. A true LGD doesn't just incidentally keep things away with its presence; if something decides to come in and test a LGD, they kill it.

There's a whole world of difference between that and "my dog doesn't hurt the chickens......"

Okay, I see where you're coming from-- thanks for clarifying. And you are so right about too many Aussies and Border Collies winding up in shelters. I do share my personal experience with my particular Aussie, but am careful not to recommend the breed in general. Not because I think they'd maul chickens (though they can and do) but because they require so much activity and involvement. I researched the heck out of the breed, and breeders, before I undertook an Aussie. They are not for everyone. Anyway, I understand why you're passionate about it.

Kelli

 

[cmjust0]

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Glad you did your homework first...as you well know, too few people take the time.

What worries me -- why I get so worked up here -- is because lots of people simply go by what 'everybody' says when they're looking for a dog, but a scant handful of people can appear to be 'everybody' in a hurry when lots of people start mindlessly regurgitating a handful of peoples' wacky ideas..

As much as I like this forum...at times...it sounds a bit like an echo chamber. Noob asks question...noob gets suggestion...before noob actually tries suggestion, noob is making same suggestion to newer noobs. Round and round she goes.. It's really not good -- especially when lives are at stake, which is certainly the case when it comes to the point where dogs and chickens and predators converge.


Also...and this is for anyone following the thread...I think maybe I started to come off like someone who simply hates herding breed dogs, but it's just the opposite...I absolutely love them, which is why I cringe at the thought of someone using one for flock protection or yet another one ending up in the shelter because someone got it to protect their chickens and -- surprise! -- it killed them..

So, for the record: I LOVE HERDING BREED DOGS!


(...just not for chicken guardians...)

 

[Trenary Duck Farm]

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The sheep and goat farms in our area use the Great Pyrenees (GP) as the LGD of choice/availability. We own one now also. However, if we were living in the suburbs, a GP may not be a good solution. And we certainly wouldn't use a dog bred to nip at the heels of livestock as a guardian for ducklings.

 

[cmjust0]

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Yep...one nip is all it takes if a duckling doesn't move just the way a BC or Aussie wants and, next thing ya know, there's an "OH NO! My own dog just killed a duckling!" thread in P&P accentuated with lots of

and

and

and

smilies..

Then the dog either gets beat with a dead bird, or chained up, or has a dead bird tied to it, or it gets rehomed (to the shelter), or "DH" or "DW" or "D"-whatever is threatening to shoot it, or....ugh.

Not good.

 

[Rowtag]

I agree each dog is an individual. I would have never even gotten chickens while our GSD was alive even though she was a great guard dog. Our collie (rough, not border) is amazing with the birds. She loves them as babies and will sit over the brooder. If you ask her to go check on the chickens she runs to the back door. She herds them to and from free ranging spots and keeps them there till time to come back to the coop. Most recently she has decided that she is a coon hound and has treed two so far. I still do not leave her completely alone with them for any length of time. She is a herding dog, not a live stock guarding dog, she sometimes gets a little rough with them if someone is not there to back her off. Training is everything, and I definitely recommend starting with a puppy.

 

[wombat]

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I disagree ...

There is a difference between herding breeds and tending breeds. Tending breeds would be better for flock protection. Herding breeds, such as the Aussies everyone's going on about, may work out with some work on your part, but they are rather active. They may also be too lightweight for the job, depending on what predators you have around.

Great Pyrenees and German Shepherd Dogs are common tending dogs. (Though many "tending" breeds also "herd') Anatolians, Belgian Shepherds, etc are as well. Tending breeds are often more content to lie in the shade with one ear up and wont need to "herd" your chickens every waking moment. Coyotes aren't likely to risk a run-in with any of these. We have a lot of hawks around, and they won't come near when our German Shepherd Dog is out, even though he spends most of his time laying on his back in a clover patch. Tending dogs will deter predators, and they'll kill them if need be. They're bred for this.

With that said, most any dog will do if you want to put some work in ... but whereas tending breeds will generally show up ready to keep an eye on your stock, retrievers and such may have a desire to pick up and retrieve birds, energetic herding breeds may have a tendency to want to "work" your stock whether it needs it or not, terriers have strong prey instincts, and so on. Do you want to work with your dog's breeding, or work to overcome it? Some may just plain be too predatory to be left alone with your stock.

A lot comes down to the individual dog, as well. Some have very strong prey drive, and others of the same breed won't show much of this at all. You can get a good tending dog from a working line breeder who will know their line's tendencies, or you can take your chances, get any dog you like, and put in more or less work depending on your luck.

I had an uncle who decided to "retire" from farming and just raise beef cattle in his "retirement." He decided to get a dog to help him move the cattle, and had heard about Australian Cattle Dogs (back before the days of the Internet). He mistakenly got an Aussie Shepherd, and she was a little bitty thing. Not one to give up easily, he worked with what he got, and she could move cattle, though possibly due to a sense of humor on the part of the cattle. The whole point of an ACD, though, is that they are silent, and won't spook the wilder sort of cattle. His Aussie Shepherd was of course anything but a calm, quiet worker ... but since he didn't have spooky wild Aussie cattle, it all worked out, with much effort from both man and beast.

So ... get a dog you like, but expect that the further from a tending dog you get, the more work you may be in for.

P.S. - The one thing I've found with tending dogs is that slow moving traffic tends to set them off. I don't know if the speed matches that of a predator, or what, but if our German Shepherd dog sees a bicyclist along the road on the other side of a fencerow, he's off like a shot. Luckily, he won't go through or over the fence ... Something to consider, if you're near a road and don't have a fence.