Economics Current Info - If you're not interested just pass it by!

[Dunkopf]

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Yes, "bipartisan", R's and D's sitting in the same room. No, Libs, Greens, or Inds either. I smell a rat, a dead nasty festering rat. I need to read the whole report. Oh wait, there is no report yet. Those are the top three suggestions the media is reporting. The public is probably being market tested while both parties can sit back and take no responsibility yet.

It's all just a show right now. Grab a bag of popcorn and find a comfy seat. It's just getting started.

Testing is exactly what it is. Throw it out there and see if it sticks. It has been news for a couple days and this is the 1st time I've seen it on here. That's a pretty good indication that the stuff that effects the lower 98% will probably go through. The upper 2% pays a lot more attention, so I'm sure they will be sure that nothing that will effect them in a negative way will go through. They'll just buy all the empty houses and rent them to us. Business deductions will still be allowed so they'll get to deduct mortgage interest as a business deduction.

They are supposed to have a final report by Dec 31st. Then our new House will bat it around and kick it back and forth with the Senate. Then if it's too bad it will get vetoed and they can start again.

 

[Dunkopf]

I have WHAT in my yard? :

PC said: We do need to change our lifestyles, for so many reasons. The first for me is spiritual but I won't go there for now. The second is moral. Our rampant consumption empowers and enables some rather disgusting human elements. Also, while I'm not a climate change proponent, a monkey could see the environmental damage occurring in China and many other countries, including our own (although getting much better here, not perfect, just better). We outlawed slavery here over a century ago but almost anything you buy at Walmart is supporting legal slavery in some country or another. I'm starting to rant so I'll shut up.


I must be demented too because there is a part of me brimming with a strange excitement as I watch economies and countries forced to change, hopefully for the better.

PC I swear, there are moments when I simply love you.

We need to change our moral vein ie things like cheating. But, I am almost as worried that too many will interpret this as a need to implement some version of religion which is not the same thing at all.

Talking to my 86 year old FIL is revealing for me, as he lived through the depression and WWII and every "the world is ending" in between. The spill from the Deepwater Horizon is less than 2/3rds of the amount of petroleum that was spilled in along the east coast during WWII. It was decades before it all stopped washing ashore. But, it did....

Given my true druthers I would like to see some sort of systemic collapse. The Fed has destroyed our currency. (They're celebrating their 100 year anniversary this year!) The systemic risk at this point is unsustainable on a global scale. We have several choices and all of them are bad. The ones that are most likely to maintain our lifestyle as close to what we have now are far too socialistic (using the term inappropriately as it is being used in the general public) for the government to be able to pull them off. The rest require cultural change of ethos which is not changing any time soon, as the same things are still being taught at the university level to business and finance majors. In the absence of a coordinated series of choices the rest will happen organically. There were "end of the world as we know it" events every 20 years or so. The world as we know it ends repeatedly. We usually don't notice until after it is over...... We usually adapt.

In the meantime, I invest only money that I can afford (again loosely) to lose. I keep my house and family prepared for interruptions of services. I try to aim for a self sufficient lifestyle, fully grasping that that requires community, not hunker down siege type thinking. I invest in food - I do expect inflation in food prices. I invest in skills.

I do pay attention the news so that I can vote and complain to my representatives wisely. I watch Glenn Beck (I find this painful) and NPR. I get much of my news from BBC.

If anyone on here wants I can keep doing some of these...... up to you all​

Please do.​

 

[PurpleChicken]

I have WHAT in my yard? :

PC I swear, there are moments when I simply love you.

Thanks but if you give me some time you'll learn to hate me. Most do.

I have WHAT in my yard? :

We need to change our moral vein ie things like cheating. But, I am almost as worried that too many will interpret this as a need to implement some version of religion which is not the same thing at all.

Cheating is relative(sort of) and subject to many gray areas. We do things in business that are ethically ok but we wouldn't treat our families the same way we treat our competition.

Yes, some will interpret this as religious however there are many on both sides of the political spectrum that realize spirituality and religion are two very different things. Basic spirituality dictates that our happiness and well being come from within. If we don't understand that we go without. (I love that quote

)

I have WHAT in my yard? :

Talking to my 86 year old FIL is revealing for me, as he lived through the depression and WWII and every "the world is ending" in between. The spill from the Deepwater Horizon is less than 2/3rds of the amount of petroleum that was spilled in along the east coast during WWII. It was decades before it all stopped washing ashore. But, it did....

Hence why I just sat back and let the doomers scare themselves about the gulf spill. There will be more of those. It's inevitable. The planet has a remarkable way of cleaning itself up. With that said we should do all we can to prevent even a drop of oil from entering our oceans.

I have WHAT in my yard? :

We have several choices and all of them are bad. The ones that are most likely to maintain our lifestyle as close to what we have now are far too socialistic (using the term inappropriately as it is being used in the general public) for the government to be able to pull them off.

It's no secret that I believe less government is part of the solution. How can increasing spending fix this? It's simple economics. Balance the budget. The government is too large and shrinking it will be painful but it's a huge inefficient monster. Raising taxes to support it is just wrong. Cutting programs people rely on is almost impossible and could cause more suffering. Deflation would be nice but that would decrease tax revenues. I'm getting a headache.​

 

[PurpleChicken]

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You and I both know the talking points on the "make the rich pay" argument. I believe there are truths in both but I can't come up with a reasonable or just solution either. The rich (depending on who you define as rich) already pay the lion's share of taxes. I hear a report this week that the average fed employee makes over $100k a year, more than double or triple what their private sector counterparts make. That enrages me.

So maybe you and I can come to a compromise and say let's look at the top 50% on a case by case basis and see where we can cut spending and I'll bend and look at increasing taxes. Oh wait, I may be in that top 50%, never mind.

If I lose my mortgage interest tax credit than I'm dumping this house and moving into my Mom's house.

 

[Dunkopf]

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You and I both know the talking points on the "make the rich pay" argument. I believe there are truths in both but I can't come up with a reasonable or just solution either. The rich (depending on who you define as rich) already pay the lion's share of taxes. I hear a report this week that the average fed employee makes over $100k a year, more than double or triple what their private sector counterparts make. That enrages me.

So maybe you and I can come to a compromise and say let's look at the top 50% on a case by case basis and see where we can cut spending and I'll bend and look at increasing taxes. Oh wait, I may be in that top 50%, never mind.

If I lose my mortgage interest tax credit than I'm dumping this house and moving into my Mom's house.

I agree it's not really fair. All I can say is that the top 2% receive about 60% of the money in this country. Some earn it. Others invested wisely. Some inherited. Some stole it. They pay the lions share only because they have the lions share. Most actually pay a lower percentage than we do after all the tax breaks. They pay 36% on income and 15% on capitol gains. Most of their income is capitol gains because a lot of them are paid the majority of their compensation in company stocks and only pay the 15% capitol gains.

My answer to that is that they should pay the extra because they can. They can do it without it hurting them even a little. I think 250k is too low. I would roll back the tax cuts on those over 1 million and raise the capitol gains tax a bit. People laying around on the beach living off capitol gains can pay a little more while the 60 year old guy breaking his back for 25k a year could pay less.

There are a lot of lies about the average pay of federal employees. Only very top management makes over 100k a year. Some employees make less than their civilian counterparts. Last I heard is the average federal employee makes around 17% more than their civilian counterpart. The reason for that is that they get actual cost of living raises each year. the private sector has been virtually stagnant on wage growth for around 15 years, so the government workers have gotten ahead of us.

The top 50% would be any family of 3 making over 42k. That's not much these days. I'm in the top 14% according to Turbo Tax. I make quite a bit less than 100k. It's nothing to crow about and I just mention it to show how little the average American is earning. Which is why I don't understand why so many people want to lose deductions or pay a flat tax so the very wealthy don't have to buy a 5 karat diamond instead of a 10 karat diamond to make their wife happy when she finds about about their latest mistress.

 

[PurpleChicken]

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I see your point and can understand why many people feel the rich can pay more. It's easy to use our own moral compasses too. Many do have a lot more money than they worked for and while that bothers me I also have to accept it's still their money. Others would say increasing the tax rate on them will cause them to hire less $25k a year guys or spend it on contractors and others. The rich in this state support a rather robust service industry.

Now the guy making 25k pays well less than $2000 per year (if he's single) where someone making 200k and only paying capital gains will still be in the $30k range. (I know I'm leaving out a lot of details). That same low paid guy would pay no long term capital gains on his investments although we both know he probably has none.


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I should clarify that the over $100k report was people working in the DC area. Federal employees in general still make a higher rate of pay and better benefits than the private sector. IMO many of those people should take pay cuts and reduced benefits before hitting anyone in the 25% or lower brackets.

We also have the issue of state and local taxes but we could gab for hours on those. My state is one of the worst in the nation for state and local taxes.



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I agree completely. How on earth people support a fam of 3 on 42k is beyond me although once again I live in CT. If I could buy a nice house for $80k and pay $1200 a year in property taxes with no state taxes I may be able to get by.

I'm not sure who wants to lose those deductions. If it comes down to families making 50k losing the interest deduction or increasing the tax rates on the 250+ crowd I'd be right there with you.


Bottom line for me is 1-Decrease the size of our government on all levels, 2-Reduce wages and benefits on the above average government employees to something reasonable, 3-Possibly institute a nationwide sales tax, 4-Make minor adjustments to the brackets and tax rates (1 to 2%), and then talk to me about cutting SS and other things that are so important to so many people.


Good thread. You folks give me a lot to think about and a good place to rant. Yelling at the radio while driving around in my van just isn't the same.

 

[Organics North]

Hey gang nice conversation you had today.. I wished I could have been there.

Thanks for the kind words PC.. I have very much been enjoying the intelligent diverse perspectives lately. It is clear to me that amongst the group the goal is mutual, just different ideas on ways to accomplish it! I can go may different ways.. Just so long as we stop and reverse the income disparity issue... IMO it is simply unhealthy to have wealth so concentrated. I do tend to think along the same lines as Dunkopf, but like I said if we can find another way to get it done then so be it!

Cheating is relative(sort of) and subject to many gray areas. We do things in business that are ethically ok but we wouldn't treat our families the same way we treat our competition. Yes, some will interpret this as religious however there are many on both sides of the political spectrum that realize spirituality and religion are two very different things. Basic spirituality dictates that our happiness and well being come from within. If we don't understand that we go without.

Interesting point... I am not real confident many can stand behind their spirituality and listen to it above all else. I fear many are influenced strongly by outside factors... Regardless I like your point!


IWHIMY.. Keep it coming! Because of you I actually turned the radio on in my truck for my 15 min trip I listened to WPR (Wisconsin Public Radio) I also actually looked up a few market things today..

Be Well
ON​

 

[Dunkopf]

I love NPR except when they are having their fundraiser.

PC I agree with a lot of what you said. I usually agree with just about everything ON says. Especially issues about income disparity. It's an important issue that many turn a blind eye to.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Concerning income disparity. Can you tell me any civilization that has not had a huge income disparity after they became civilized? The easy ones are the kings and nobility of the Middle Ages, but the Roman emperors and noble families had huge wealth with slaves all around. The Greek city-states are a little less clear but you are not going to have all that art and culture unless you have someone rich enough to pay for it. Maybe the early days of the Roman city-state before they expanded all that much, but once wealth became available from expansion, some became wealthy and they started paying people to fight for them and conquer more land instead of doing the fighting themselves. Things shifted a bit after the industrial revolution, but the Carnegies and Vanderbilts became the equivalent of nobility in a society that did not have a true nobility. I'm not saying it is fair, but I believe it is a fact of human nature that has to be dealt with.

I think the talented people, whether that talent is charisma, the equivalent of a strong sword arm, or business acumen, will rise in any society and accumulate wealth. And it usually takes talent in many categories. Charlemagne did not get his empire just because he was a military genius. He had to be able to govern what he conquered so he could keep expanding.

I don't see income disparity as something all that bad. I think you need something to aspire to so you can inspire people to try. I'd like to see the bottom rise as opposed to tearing down the top and throwing everything into chaos. I think out of all that pain and suffering tearing down would cause somebody else would just rise back to the top. If a society provides you a chance to succeed, you also have a chance to fail, but if you don't have something to aspire to, why try? Don't ignore human nature.

 

[cubalaya]

NPR? thats one of the first things that should be cut. the NEA? cut it. all government jobs that pay more than the average american citizen makes should be cut to a more reasonable less than what we make. repeal obama care. why are we giving tax dollars to the palistinian authority which is nothing more than a front for hamas terrorists? why are we giving tax dollars to planned parenthood and the ceo is making in excess of 300,000 dollars a year of our money? why are we spending all this tax money on a war when our president cant even say who the enemy is? social security? we have been paying into it our whole life. dont change the rules now when many of us are getting ready to retire. i am a firm believer in self sufficiancy but when hyper inflation hits as the result of the fed printing more money and devalueing the dollar and the city dwellers cant buy food, where are they gonna steal from?