EE/Ameraucana frustration

[spangledcornish]

I don't know if this was already posted but this is a great article written to help explain the differences. it is from the APA-ABA Youth program http://www.apa-abayouthpoultryclub.org/Edu_Material/Easter Eggers vs.pdf.

As for the SOP, while you may not show or be part of the APA or ABA, they are still guide lines on what the breed is to look like and the function of the breeds. It is correct that not all birds of Breed A will match the standard not many will as these are supposed to be the Ideals for the breed, however it does give expectations. for example if you tell me that you have a Cornish to sell me I would expect a bird with a pea comb distinctive heart shape that is similar between the males and the females, tightly feathered. those images come because of a written standard. there are more breeds than are recognized or accepted by the APA or the ABA. But most breeds have a written standard somewhere other wise we have no identity to a breed. when I hear Cochin I think most of us see the same type of chicken, that is the true benefit of a standard.

 

[Stacykins]

If the Ameraucana breeders wanted to raise a stink with hatcheries that call mutt birds by the name Ameraucana, I'll bet they could get huge support from the general membership of BYCers. It's not right, and IMO most people who purchase them really wouldn't care if they were called Easter Eggers. It's actually pretty catchy and anyway they just want the colored eggs.

The hatcheries have managed to come up with all kinda jazzy names for their sex-links, without stealing the name from any recognized breeds. I agree with BarnGoddess on this one - name stealing is misrepresentation and is not OK.

People HAVE contacted hatcheries to get them to change their names, more than you'd think, to ask them to stop calling their EEs Ameraucanas and Araucanas. But hatcheries don't, for one reason: MONEY! They are profiting from the deceptive practice of calling their colored egg layers by established breeds.

 

[CityGirlintheCountry]

Chickmanna said "
As a chicken newbie, with no dog in this fight at all, it seems to me that this whole issue comes up because the Ameraucana breeders (in general, no one specific, please), IMHO, have taken their standard a step farther than needed - to the point that it defies accepted genetic principles. Their guidelines not only contain an SOP for purposes of judging the breed (by appearance and egg color) but also a SO..... NOT which tries to define things outside the realm of a SOP.

I get that it's in response to hatcheries misrepresenting crossbreed chickens as Ameraucana, but that doesn't make it true. The issue with hatcheries misrepresenting mixed breed chickens as Ameraucanas is one thing, and should be addressed. But it defies logic to say that Ameraucana + Ameraucana equals anything but Ameraucana."

Part of this hassle is the insistence that colour negates parentage. Which seems frankly bizarre! The second paragraph of citygirlinthecountry says in part, "...With the ABC automatically saying that any chicken that doesn't match the color standard becomes an easter egger, it does make it harder to defend the purity issue. It also kind of makes us look silly. If ameraucanas were treated like all the other breeds of chickens it would make a lot more sense. A chick from two pure ameraucana parents IS an ameraucana, whether it is colored up to standard or not. A chick from one ameraucana parent and something else IS an EE, not matter how it is colored. It is a lot simpler in the end. Approved colors are still the only ones eligible to show. "


Something that makes perfect sense! From what you're saying barn goddess, parentage doesn't matter what matters is colour and prepotent genetics. That seems a little odd to me.

Exactly. The issue is color versus parentage. The ameraucana people seem to be the only ones doing this. There should be a physical standard and a statement saying that a pure ameraucana comes from two pure ameraucana parents (or in the case of new colors, a parent with a certain % of pure ameraucana genes). THEN there should be recognized color standards.

 

[LoneStarHen]

I've seen hatchery sites that list chicks as Americana/EE which would lead people to believe that the breeds are one in the same. I'm an EE fan myself because I love having all of the different shades of eggs in my basket.

 

[BarnGoddess01]

If the Ameraucana breeders wanted to raise a stink with hatcheries that call mutt birds by the name Ameraucana, I'll bet they could get huge support from the general membership of BYCers. It's not right, and IMO most people who purchase them really wouldn't care if they were called Easter Eggers. It's actually pretty catchy and anyway they just want the colored eggs.

The hatcheries have managed to come up with all kinda jazzy names for their sex-links, without stealing the name from any recognized breeds. I agree with BarnGoddess on this one - name stealing is misrepresentation and is not OK.

The big hatcheries are thinking just like many of the other folks on this thread - the parents WERE Ameraucanas at some point (many generations ago, most likely

) thus, their birds are Ameraucanas.

Thankfully, some of the big hatcheries have started letting folks know what they are getting - Easter Eggers. Which is not a problem at all. My prettiest birds, by far, and my best layers are my EEs. If you are looking for a backyard flock of pretty birds with sensational eggs, EEs ARE the way to go.

 

[CityGirlintheCountry]

Quote:

The big hatcheries are thinking just like many of the other folks on this thread - the parents WERE Ameraucanas at some point (many generations ago, most likely

) thus, their birds are Ameraucanas.

No, most of us are not saying that at all. What most of us are saying is that if BOTH parents are ameraucanas it is silly to say that the offspring are not ameraucanas, but rather are magically changed into easter eggers, a term for what is now considered to be a whole seperate breed by most folks.

Again,
ameraucana x ameraucana= ameraucana
ameraucana x something else= easter egger

It really shouldn't be that complicated or hard to understand.

welsummer x welsummer= welsummer
orpington x orpington= orpington
ameraucana x orpington= easter egger

To say that ameraucana x ameraucana= easter egger is not a sound train of thought when for every other chicken breed we say that
A x A = A. THAT is what I have issues with. I am not trying to sell mutts as pure ameraucanas. I am not trying to dilute the standard. I am not trying to besmirch what the ABC has been doing to improve the breed. I'm just trying to make us not look so ridiculous to the rest of the world. And the way it stands now with militant ameraucana people rising up in arms over non-standard colored offspring we just look stupid and most folks no longer take us seriously.

Now, any breeder worth their salt will be doing their best to keep their lines pure. I breed BBS and have worked to get good shapes and good egg colors, as well as nice lacing on my blues and green sheen on my blacks. (I am apparently cursed when it comes to splash as I have never hatched a splash hen.) I don't willy nilly mix my blues with whites or buffs or any other color to make random colored ameraucanas. I ONLY breed blue, black and splash AMs. I can be just as snobby as the best of them when it comes to the quality of my lines. That's why I moved the hens with the gold leakage problem out of my breeding pens and into the EE pens. They are technically AMs from a VERY good (and expensive) line. Did they improve my line? Nope, so they are gone.

It is a semantics issue and I have a hard time with the illogic of it all. It is so much easier to say that is an easter egger because one parent is not and ameraucana, that is a non-standard ameraucana because it is colored wrong and that is a SOP ameraucana because it fits both the shape, description AND color standards. Then when the hatcheries say "We are selling ameraucanas" we have the ammunition to come back and say "Oh, so then BOTH parents are pure ameraucanas, right?" Lineage should count for more than color.

I'm backing out of this thread as it is going nowhere. This has been an ongoing problem with the AM people and is one of the reasons that I haven't renewed my ABC membership. It is a silly argument of just words and means nothing to how I breed and sell my ameraucanas.

 

[Illia]

Why I love Araucanas - There's NO confusing them with other breeds.

 

[redhen]

Quote:

No, most of us are not saying that at all.  What most of us are saying is that if BOTH parents are ameraucanas it is silly to say that the offspring are not ameraucanas, but rather are magically changed into easter eggers, a term for what is now considered to be a whole seperate breed by most folks.

Again,
ameraucana x ameraucana= ameraucana
ameraucana x something else= easter egger

It really shouldn't be that complicated or hard to understand.

welsummer x welsummer= welsummer
orpington x orpington= orpington
ameraucana x orpington= easter egger

To say that ameraucana x ameraucana= easter egger is not a sound train of thought when for every other chicken breed we say that
A x A = A.  THAT is what I have issues with.  I am not trying to sell mutts as pure ameraucanas.  I am not trying to dilute the standard.  I am not trying to besmirch what the ABC has been doing to improve the breed.  I'm just trying to make us not look so ridiculous to the rest of the world.  And the way it stands now with militant ameraucana people rising up in arms over non-standard colored offspring we just look stupid and most folks no longer take us seriously.

Now, any breeder worth their salt will be doing their best to keep their lines pure.  I breed BBS and have worked to get good shapes and good egg colors, as well as nice lacing on my blues and green sheen on my blacks.  (I am apparently cursed when it comes to splash as I have never hatched a splash hen.)  I don't willy nilly mix my blues with whites or buffs or any other color to make random colored ameraucanas.  I ONLY breed blue, black and splash AMs.  I can be just as snobby as the best of them when it comes to the quality of my lines.  That's why I moved the hens with the gold leakage problem out of my breeding pens and into the EE pens.  They are technically AMs from a VERY good (and expensive) line.  Did they improve my line?  Nope, so they are gone.

It is a semantics issue and I have a hard time with the illogic of it all.  It is so much easier to say that is an easter egger because one parent is not and ameraucana, that is a non-standard ameraucana because it is colored wrong and that is a SOP ameraucana because it fits both the shape, description AND color standards.  Then when the hatcheries say "We are selling ameraucanas" we have the ammunition to come back and say "Oh, so then BOTH parents are pure ameraucanas, right?"  Lineage should count for more than color.

I'm backing out of this thread as it is going nowhere.  This has been an ongoing problem with the AM people and is one of the reasons that I haven't renewed my ABC membership.  It is a silly argument of just words and means nothing to how I breed and sell my ameraucanas.

As usual, you make PERFECT sense!

 

[BarnGoddess01]

ameraucana x ameraucana= ameraucana

In your world, maybe, but in reality, not necessarily. Apparently, you are completely misunderstanding how things work with poultry - Ameraucanas, at any rate. I could repeat over and over what's already been said but it obviously isn't getting through.

If it doesn't meet the breed description, it isn't Ameraucana. Doesn't matter who x who.

 

[rebelcowboysnb]

Quote:
The rules that apply to every other breed of animal on the planet, y'all don't want to apply to this one an its everyone else that is causing the problem... Maybe your wrong about who is actually out of touch with reality....