Famous Hatchery 'Pure Bred' Appearances

[BreanneRN]

Someone is welcome to correct me if I am wrong about this but Buckeyes were originally darker than RIRs. It could be that Buckeyes have become a bit lighter over the years, but I suspect that heritage RIR breeders of recent times have just taken the color closer to the buckeyes... and of course it could be both of these things.

That is exactly what happens... Show people want to win! If darker birds are doing better at the shows, then those breeds are going to get darker... And the reverse is true, too. If lighter ones are winning, birds are going to get lighter. This can happen even if that wasn't why the darker bird won!

 

[OhZark Biddies]

That is exactly what happens...

Right, and this was sort of BlackHackles original point about the difference in hatchery and exhibition flocks not being the same thing.

And really it happens going in both directions as exhibitions breeders select narrowly for type, color and/or trait, and hatcheries select widely for health and production and not much else, a great deal of genetic variance between the different flock types begins to happen. Who is wrong? In my view no one is wrong, it's just a something that we have to understand and be aware of.

It happens in working dogs, where you have a show line of beagles with almost none of the "rabbit sense" that is found in the hunting lines, and it happens in cattle where you have club calf lines of shorthorns with fluffy red and white "pony" hair and narrow hips, that look nothing like the production beef shorthorns lines where bulls are selected for butts, nuts and guts. There are beagle people that are glad to have a beagle from a show line that isn't as gamey as his hunting line cousins, and there are shorthorn people that don't want that bulky beef cattle look in their club calf... so that's why the various lines exist.

The great thing about this thread is the pictures are offering some comparisons that illustrate how different these 2 types of lines can look, so we can all be more aware.

 

[Alexandra33]

Mille Fluer D'Uccle:
View attachment 1519750 View attachment 1519751

What they should look like:
View attachment 1519752 View attachment 1519753

Breathtaking! Eagle Nest (a local hatchery/breeder) wasn't kidding when they claimed their bantams are exhibition quality....mine appears quite similar to "how they should look."

~Alex

 

[jolenesdad]

Right, and this was sort of BlackHackles original point about the difference in hatchery and exhibition flocks not being the same thing.

And really it happens going in both directions as exhibitions breeders select narrowly for type, color and/or trait, and hatcheries select widely for health and production and not much else, a great deal of genetic variance between the different flock types begins to happen. Who is wrong? In my view no one is wrong, it's just a something that we have to understand and be aware of.

Prefacing that I certainly don’t know much of anything with chicken genetics...

This comment makes me think is there more genetic diversity within hatchery stock? And does this make them potentially healthier? Or do chickens not need much genetic diversity to thrive?

 

[OhZark Biddies]

This comment makes me think is there more genetic diversity within hatchery stock?

I think that this is pretty much always the case. That diversity can cause issues for exhibition breeders though, so often it's viewed as a bad thing. Probably most often it's viewed that way by these breeders.

But there can be genetic diversity in a breed, and genetic pollution in a breed, which would be two different things, I think sometimes folks think of it as the same thing though.

And does this make them potentially healthier? Or do chickens not need much genetic diversity to thrive?

I'm not sure I'm the one to speak to this, but I'll give it a shot....I have read that chickens can be bred closer than say dogs or cats, but as far as 'genetic health' issues it stands to reason that a closely bred flock would develop more of those, but I'm not familiar enough to really know what the common genetic health issues are or how common they are.

But since you qualified your question with "potentially" healthier, I think it would be fair to say yes, they would be potentially healthier concerning genetic health issues. Concerning general health issues, maybe not much difference though.

Edit: I should point out too that when I said earlier that "hatcheries select widely for health and production and not much else", I really just meant they likely cull the ones with obvious health issues and severe faults, and that's probably about it.

 

[cmom]

I have had the same line of birds for years. My original RIR's I got at a show from a breeder they were nice birds but they were narrower along the back than what the SOP calls for. I went to a show and saw some beautiful RIR's and sought out the exhibitor/breeder and made arrangements to get some birds from him at a upcoming show. Even though both breeders had the same line they weren't the same. The ones I got from the exhibitor/breeder had wider backs to the tail, where the first birds I got were narrower along the back to the tail. I did get some champions from my breeding's with the birds I got from the exhibitor/breeder. My point is, it depends on the breeding stock and how carefully you pick out your birds with certain traits. I have a lot of chicks I'm growing out now from this year's hatches and I know most won't be breeders but I will probably have some. I don't sell my chicks I grow them out so I know what I have.

 

[MissChick@dee]

Right, and this was sort of BlackHackles original point about the difference in hatchery and exhibition flocks not being the same thing.

And really it happens going in both directions as exhibitions breeders select narrowly for type, color and/or trait, and hatcheries select widely for health and production and not much else, a great deal of genetic variance between the different flock types begins to happen. Who is wrong? In my view no one is wrong, it's just a something that we have to understand and be aware of.

It happens in working dogs, where you have a show line of beagles with almost none of the "rabbit sense" that is found in the hunting lines, and it happens in cattle where you have club calf lines of shorthorns with fluffy red and white "pony" hair and narrow hips, that look nothing like the production beef shorthorns lines where bulls are selected for butts, nuts and guts. There are beagle people that are glad to have a beagle from a show line that isn't as gamey as his hunting line cousins, and there are shorthorn people that don't want that bulky beef cattle look in their club calf... so that's why the various lines exist.

The great thing about this thread is the pictures are offering some comparisons that illustrate how different these 2 types of lines can look, so we can all be more aware.

Exactly!!

 

[cmom]

As far as the health of the birds I don't think hatchery birds are more healthy. I think it depends more on the care of the birds. I am very careful when I take my birds to a show and I do have the state test my birds yearly. I don't bring in birds from others as I don't know what issues they may have had. You can't show birds unless they have been tested and at the shows if your birds haven't been tested, they are when you check them in.

 

[OhZark Biddies]

As far as the health of the birds I don't think hatchery birds are more healthy.

I think the question wouldn't be with general health issues (bacterial, viral, etc) , but with genetic health issues (reoccurring congenital abnormalities, reproductive tract issues, limb and beak birth defects, low fertility roosters, low lay rates in hens, low hatch rates, etc).

I don't think those are issues breeders would talk openly about, so I don't have a good sense of how common they are... it just stands to reason that they'd be more prevalent over time, the more tightly a line is bred.

 

[Kiki]

As far as the health of the birds I don't think hatchery birds are more healthy. I think it depends more on the care of the birds. I am very careful when I take my birds to a show and I do have the state test my birds yearly. I don't bring in birds from others as I don't know what issues they may have had. You can't show birds unless they have been tested and at the shows if your birds haven't been tested, they are when you check them in.

I have to spread the word.
I'm not directing this at you so please take no offense.

Each state has different "testing" requirements for entering a bird into a show. The majority of states only require PT testing.
PT hasn't been in my state in God knows how many years...a lot of years.