fermenting feed and protein levels

[Soon2BChixMom]

If you ask because you are currently straining... just mix thicker.

No, I haven't attempted ff yet. But, I read on one blog it was better to use a feed of mixed grains not crumbles. I don't rely on blogs for the most accurate info though. I only want to give it a try for less feed waste for my ducks they drag feed out of their no waste feeder and it ends up all over the ground. They make their own mash in their water.
My chickens use their no waste feeder appropriately.

 

[Morrigan]

How long do you ferment with just water?

I do so right on my kitchen counter top.
It usually takes mine about 3 days to ferment with plain water, nothing added.
I reserve a small amount each day to start the next batch which is ready over night.

Ditto. I ferment in an outside shed attached to the chicken coop. In hot weather it can be ready in 2 days, in the winter 4, but 3 is a good average. Every second or third day, when its gets near the bottom, I just back-fill, adding more food and water. It's a pretty simple routine, actually.

Depending on the time of year, and what I have on hand, I have also added whole grains (wheat/barley/outs) and alfalfa cubes to the mix and it ferments up nicely along with the food.

 

[Melky]

Ditto. I ferment in an outside shed attached to the chicken coop. In hot weather it can be ready in 2 days, in the winter 4, but 3 is a good average. Every second or third day, when its gets near the bottom, I just back-fill, adding more food and water. It's a pretty simple routine, actually.

Depending on the time of year, and what I have on hand, I have also added whole grains (wheat/barley/outs) and alfalfa cubes to the mix and it ferments up nicely along with the food.

So question to clarify when back fill do you use the next day or wait 2-3 days?

 

[EggSighted4Life]

So question to clarify when back fill do you use the next day or wait 2-3 days?

To me it depends on how much you back slop and how much you add in and your temps... I did have two buckets going and feed out one while the other get's back up to par... back and forth.

 

[Wil781]

How long do you ferment with just water?

Just three days, I don't add anything to the dry feed but distilled water by the time it is ready to feed it is bubbly and sweet/sour smelling. I use to not like the smell but have grown to really like it.

 

[Morrigan]

So question to clarify when back fill do you use the next day or wait 2-3 days?

I usually use it the next day. You can tell if it has fermented -- it puffs up and gets that sourdough-ish smell.

 

[centrarchid]

Just for thought. The fermentation process involves heat production and off-gassing. Taking those issues into account, what do you think is going on from the perspective of organisms carrying out the fermentation process? Then consider how that impacts percent protein of fermented product as well as total protein relative to what you started with. I am doing this as a teacher of nutrition, not a backyard poultry keeper.

 

[Shadrach]

100% I think higher protein levels during molt makes a huge difference. But I feel as though feeding "higher" on a regular basis has impact on what reserves they have available when they head into molt as well.

And I like walnuts (myself way to pricey for birds)... BUT... not sure their protein contains the amino acids that are partly key. That's why I say animal and not plant source protein.

Good point! I think walnuts only contain 6 of the essential amion acids (I would have to look them up to be sure) but you are correct in that they do not provide a complete protein.
I saw in an earlier post of yours that you give feed with protein content as high as 24%.
Out here that level of protein is usually confined to the layer feeds that also have high calcium levels. I'm concerned about high calcium levels because I've got lots of roosters and although I have no hard evidence yet, I think these high calcium levels may be responsible in part to the early deaths of some of the roosters here.
Walnuts grow here so they're relatively cheap even if I have to buy them.

 

[Kiki]

Just for thought. The fermentation process involves heat production and off-gassing. Taking those issues into account, what do you think is going on from the perspective of organisms carrying out the fermentation process? Then consider how that impacts percent protein of fermented product as well as total protein relative to what you started with. I am doing this as a teacher of nutrition, not a backyard poultry keeper.

I am currently reading this, not finished yet.
http://www.fao.org/docrep/x2184e/x2184e06.htm

"Most bacterial fermentations produce lactic acids; while yeast fermentation results in alcohol production. Many of the indigenous fermentation products of cereals are valued for the taste and aroma active components produced and are used as seasonings and condiments. A summary of flavor compounds formed in such products was compiled by Chaven and Kadam (1989). A number of fermented products utilize cereals in combination with legumes, thus improving the overall protein quality of the fermented product. Cereals are deficient in lysine, but are rich in cystine and methionine. Legumes on the other hand are rich in lysine but deficient in sulfur containing amino acids. Thus, by combining cereals with legumes, the overall protein quality is improved. The Chinese concept of "fan" (rice) and "tsai"(other vegetables) for a balanced and interesting diet is seen throughout the world (Campbell-Platt 1994)."


"Fermentation causes changes in food quality indices including texture, flavor, appearance, nutrition and safety.
The benefits of fermentation may include improvement in palatability and acceptability by developing improved flavors and textures; preservation through formation of acidulants, alcohol, and antibacterial compounds; enrichment of nutritive content by microbial synthesis of essential nutrients and improving digestibility of protein and carbohydrates; removal of anti-nutrients, natural toxicants and mycotoxins; and decreased cooking times."

 

[centrarchid]

I am currently reading this, not finished yet.
http://www.fao.org/docrep/x2184e/x2184e06.htm

"Most bacterial fermentations produce lactic acids; while yeast fermentation results in alcohol production. Many of the indigenous fermentation products of cereals are valued for the taste and aroma active components produced and are used as seasonings and condiments. A summary of flavor compounds formed in such products was compiled by Chaven and Kadam (1989). A number of fermented products utilize cereals in combination with legumes, thus improving the overall protein quality of the fermented product. Cereals are deficient in lysine, but are rich in cystine and methionine. Legumes on the other hand are rich in lysine but deficient in sulfur containing amino acids. Thus, by combining cereals with legumes, the overall protein quality is improved. The Chinese concept of "fan" (rice) and "tsai"(other vegetables) for a balanced and interesting diet is seen throughout the world (Campbell-Platt 1994)."


"Fermentation causes changes in food quality indices including texture, flavor, appearance, nutrition and safety.
The benefits of fermentation may include improvement in palatability and acceptability by developing improved flavors and textures; preservation through formation of acidulants, alcohol, and antibacterial compounds; enrichment of nutritive content by microbial synthesis of essential nutrients and improving digestibility of protein and carbohydrates; removal of anti-nutrients, natural toxicants and mycotoxins; and decreased cooking times."

None of that addresses the assertion about changes in protein level. What I see going on is the carbohydrate component is being converted to some combination of carbon dioxide, alcohol, lactic acid and water which contain less energy than the carbohydrates they are derived from. Additionally, they tend to be volatile so are lost. The process reduces the energy to protein ratio which by itself causes an apparent increase in protein content. Some real generation of protein can occur if nitrogen sourced for chemical species that are not already protein / amino acids.

The amino acid profile issue may not be as important when fermenting complete feeds. Available amino acid profile might be improved through increased digestibility.