For the MINIMALISTS - those who think less is more in chicken keeping - Please help

[Shadrach]

Chickens you know, they're little feckers. All those plans and attempts at being efficient and then the chickens have their say.

I've got some advice for you, buy your eggs at a store if that is all you want out of the chicken.
Alternatively, learn to enjoy the chickens. If your efficiency does save you any time spend that with the chickens. They're really interesting creatures.

 

[In the mtns]

Got it, no pine shavings. I thought some people use pine? Is it a different material than shavings?

Just want to chime in on this one.
I love using pine shavings for the coop interior, I also like the deep bedding method. The feed stores usually sell a few different sizes of shavings, small, med and large. Every brand is different tho, some are more dusty and messy than others while some are super clean and nearly dust free, you may have to just try a few out and find which one is best for your flock.
Hope this helps!

 

[In the mtns]

Don’t stress too much, you can always change things as you go, as long as the basic structure is sound. We’ve only had chickens for about two years now, and there is always something however minor…many small tweaks a few big tweaks…expect them and roll with it.
Like you wrote in your post, it’s nice to just sit and watch the hens and remember how simple life is for them and that you help make that possible! They truly are great entertainment and you’ll learn what they need soon enough

 

[3KillerBs]

But am I basically doing the same thing whether it is deep bedding or deep litter - throwing down layers of straw? The variable is the linoleum surface (dry) vs the dirt or soil (moist)?

Yes, exactly. The main variable is the moisture content and thus whether the system is dry or actively composting.

How do I know if the run deep litter compost is balanced correctly?

One of the beauties of this system is that it doesn't have to be precise. If your coop/run don't stink then you're fine.

So they should be okay in the coop with the ventilation in the attached photo?

Probably.

You're looking at two things with ventilation, first, the replacement of warm, moist, ammonia-laden air with clean, fresh air -- which is why in my article you see vents at the top and bottom of the roof slope -- and, second, temperature control.

If your ventilation is sufficient to keep the temperature inside the coop equal to the temperature outside the coop then you're probably good on the fresh air part too.

The guideline is to have at least 1 square foot of permanent, 24/7/365 ventilation per adult, standard-sized hen. By experience I have found that in my climate if I don't have DEEP shade I have to have double or triple that to keep the coop under 100F on a 90F day.

You need to think about airFLOW, which is why I made the diagrams in the article I linked.

Put all the ventilation you can manage up right under the roof and you'll never have to worry about drafts. Have a look at my brooder, where I can have chicks who are less than week old outside in the winter with their heat source, 16 square feet of ventilation, but no drafts down on the floor where they are.

I'm just going to give one small opinion: don't leave feed out in the run overnight, you'll atrract rodents and a plethora of varmints.

I have been pondering the food and the rodents situation. Someone suggested the attached food setup - a large trash can with the food things at the bottom. Do you think I will have a problem with critters getting into the food/trash can?

Does everyone move the feed inside at night?

To comment on all these feed issues,

I do not move feed in and out and have not had a rodent problem in the chicken area. The hanging feeders I mentioned earlier limit the spillage that attracts rodents. I tried those spill-proof feeders and found my chickens unwilling to put their heads into a hole in order to eat.

If you are going to use that sort of feeder, be aware that rodents, including squirrels, can chew right through plastic. Also, depending on climate, it could be prone to condensation, which would cause the feed to get moldy -- very bad for the birds' health.

This is one of those areas where everyone's situation is going to be a bit different and thus each of us must determine what works for us in our situation rather than try to come up with a one-size-fits all solution.

Chickens are tough, adaptable livestock that are capable of doing well under many different management systems.

Surprisingly, there are a lot of people in NJ who have chickens so I would think I could find pine straw. I need to look into this. Another stupid question but is all straw pine or is straw made of different materials?

There are many, many different kinds of bedding that you could use, each with its advantages and disadvantages. Some are universally available, some are locally abundant but unavailable in other areas. Sometimes you get free bedding where the price makes up for any disadvantages it has.

Wood shavings -- universally available at a reasonable price, absorbent, somewhat resistant to packing/matting, light and easy to handle, slow to break down, may be dusty. Beware Cedar because Eastern Red Cedar contains aromatic oils that are highly irritating to the lungs and birds have delicate respiratory systems.

Straw (the stalks left over after harvesting grain) -- comes in bales or chopped and in different textures depending on which grain it was. Traditional animal bedding over millennia, absorbent, often inexpensive, composts readily, can be prone to packing/matting and thus may need to be fluffed up more often, may grow mold if it gets wet, hollow stems *might* (or might not), harbor parasites IF they are present (this is debatable). An intact bale with one string cut is an EXCELLENT boredom buster for a flock that has to be confined for some reason. Intact bales make excellent chicken-level windbreaks.

Sawdust -- fine and dusty. Fairly absorbent. Scoopable. May be available for free but be careful of the source to not get treated wood or Eastern Red Cedar. Easy to handle, composts faster than shavings but not as fast as straw.

Pelleted Horse Bedding -- Easy to handle, highly absorbent, may be expensive. Composts like sawdust because that's mostly what it is.

Wood Chips -- Coarse wood chips from a tree trimming service are generally considered the gold standard for controlling mud and odor in the run. Do not pack or mat. Highly absorbent. May be available free from a municipal waste site in variable quantities, may be available free by the dump truck load from a tree trimming service. Bagged mulch is similar but be sure to get it free of dyes and fertilizer and the coarse kind rather than the finer variety.

Hemp Bedding -- Trendy among the eco-conscious. Expensive. Scoopable. I have no direct experience with it.

Pine Straw (the long, soft needles from the Loblolly and/or Longleaf pines) -- Locally available in the US southeast. Inexpensive or free-for-the-raking. Not particularly absorbent. Highly resistant to packing/matting. Dries out on top quickly after even the heaviest rains. Very slow to break down.

Shredded Paper -- light, absorbent, may be free for the labor of doing the shredding. There's a long thread about it here: Using Shredded Paper for Coop Litter - As Good As Wood Chips?

Fall Leaves, Lawn Clippings, and other yard waste -- highly variable in availability and composition. May be excellent, may need extra management to keep it from packing and matting. Free. Uses material you would otherwise have to dispose of.

Ground Corn Cobs, Rice Hulls, etc. -- Locally available materials worth looking into if the price is right.

Hmm, I have some pine trees in my yard and we frequent the pine barrens. It can't be any type of pine needles, correct? I would love to use something we already have.

Mine are white pines. Grab a handful of the needles under your pines. If they are sharp and prickly they are the wrong thing. If they are all soft then bag ‘em up and give them to the chickens!

While the commercially available pine straw in the US Southeast comes from the Loblolly and Longleaf pines, any soft pine needle can be included in the "yard waste" category. I wouldn't use Spruce needles or anything like them simply because they're too sharp for me to handle comfortably.

Also, consider whether algae is an issue where you live. We never went with an automated/large water system because we regularly have to scrub out our containers.

An excellent point.

My climate and water source tends to grow algae so I don't use a giant system for that exact reason.

Also, with my large, mixed age, mixed sex flock it's better to have multiple water sources in case of flock bullying issues.

 

[KyCoop]

5 hens are super easy to care for. I had 5 once and then decided i needed more poop in my life so I'm back up to 9.
Chickens are very forgiving of all of us who were first timers, so dont worry too much.
Your doing your research and learning BEFORE you get your girls. That is huge.

 

[3KillerBs]

Thanks
I agree.
Spend money on good quality stock to start. You can have all the cool stuff you want but fancy roosts can't make weak blood good

And know what you mean by "quality".

If you want to show, get show birds from show breeders.

If you want backyard layers, get hardy, healthy birds of breeds well-suited to your climate and conditions.

If you want max egg production for sales, get production layer hybrids.

If you want feathered pets get birds from breeds and/or lines known for tameness and docility.

If you want self-sufficient free-rangers who thrive with minimal human input get birds who come from that kind of environment.

Etc.

 

[Sueby]

Oooh, I see @3KillerBs here, she has a good article on deep bedding she can link that will explain it all. It does seem too good to be true, but nope, it’s not! You are correct, I just put pine shavings in, turn it over every once in a while & clean it out completely twice a year. It takes me about 20 minutes to shovel it out & out and put a new bale of new shavings in. That really is it.

My run is very large at about 1200sf, all dirt, I get loads of wood chips from local tree trimming companies & just put a pile of the trimmings out & let the birds spread them. I leave the leaves in when they fall in the fall. I do no other maintenance there.

 

[GetFitWithKrista]

As someone who started off with sand in our run, I feel I can say - don't do it!! The first year I loved it. The second year, not so much, but didn't want to move it. This year had me, with a shovel and wheelbarrow, moving a pickup truck load of sand out of the run because it started to smell so bad even after scooping at least twice a day - every day.
Granted a coop will stay dryer than a covered run, but just the poop alone will add plenty of moisture especially if you don't want to scoop it every day.
We use pine shavings in the coops and a mix of hardwood mulch, straw, used shavings and pine needles in the run

I was getting closer to not using sand after everyone's amazing suggestions - you just tipped me over the edge. No sand. Thank you for this story.

 

[3KillerBs]

Oops, hit the wrong button.

s there a difference in deep bedding vs deep litter besides deep bedding is dry because it's in the coop which is dry - and deep litter is moist because it is in the run where sometimes there might be some rain or dew or snow?

Deep Litter *can* be done over a floor, but it much better done with ground contact because that way the beneficial organisms are seeded into the bedding through the soil.

Just something to watch for, shavings can be dusty. Watch for respiratory issues like runny nose and sneezing

Chickens themselves are inherently dusty because of the feather dander

All coop cleaning should be done with a mask on to protect our lungs regardless of the bedding system.

I heard back from the coop designer. He said the henhouse is very well ventilated with a hardware cloth ceiling that runs the entire width. See the attached photo.

The ventilated ceiling is good up to a point, but that clear roof will turn the coop into a rotisserie on a hot summer day. Chickens tolerate cold very well -- down to 0F and below -- but they suffer in the heat.

It would be much more beneficial to use an opaque roof to provide shade. Personally, I was surprised and delighted to discover how easy it is to install metal roofing on purlins using self-tapping screws as provided by the seller of the metal and a cordless impact driver.

I'm a small woman with arthritic wrists, but the metal I did personally was easy to handle.

Got it, no pine shavings. I thought some people use pine? Is it a different material than shavings?

Pine shavings are fine. Just wear a mask against the dust when you clean.

Does your part of New Jersey have pine straw available? I'm not quite sure where on the US east coast the loblolly pines stop growing. Pine straw is, IMO, terrific bedding for a run because they resist packing and matting -- though I like something more absorbent for the coop itself.

But doesn't it sit there for at least 6 months before you clean it out? So it's just dried up poop in the coop and run for all that time and it's safe?

How often you're going to need to change the bedding is going to depend on how deep a layer you will put in and how much time the chickens spend in there. A smaller coop with shallower bedding needs to be cleaned more often. A larger coop with more bedding needs to be cleaned less often.

The coop shown in the article requires cleaning 4-5 times a year depending on the number of chickens and the time of year. My big Open Air coop is coming up on it's first cleaning after about 18 months.

Yes, the dry poop remains in the Deep Bedding, but as long as it's completely dry it's inert and harmless. Then when you take it out and form the compost pile it gets wet and composts instead of just rotting and reeking because of the chemical interaction between the nitrogen in the manure and the carbon in the bedding as facilitated by the composting organisms.

For the Deep Litter in the run, those organisms work the entire time processing the nitrogen and carbon into compost.

 

[RoyalChick]

Fabulous. This is great and feels good to me. How do you handle food and water? I read something intersting about using a large trash can with feeders for food, and the rainwater collection system. I haven't thorougly researched the rainwater deal yet.

I originally planned an automatic watering system straight from rain barrel to drinking nipples on PVC pipe. Some people have that.
But what I realized is that in our winters it would be a pain to stop freezing.
I have a 5 gallon bucket with nipples in the coop (I have a large coop) and in winter I stand it on a small heated base that is rated to use with plastic buckets. That way when it is cold I don't have to run around with bottles of warm water or bring the water in overnight. I did that my first winter. Never again!
I also have a couple of regular TSC hanging waterers in their secure covered run. Those freeze when it gets cold but they don't break and the chickens can always go into the coop to get water when those are frozen.
I have several (I think 3) hanging feeders. That is less about minimal effort and more about preventing the ladies from squabbling for food. I too thought about a big bin of food but decided that there was too much risk that the feed would go stale or get moldy or contaminated by mice. I end up topping up the feeders 1-2X a week maybe.
Really my biggest efficiency is the litter and not scooping or really worrying about the poop at all because it just disappears into the deep litter.
Hope that helps.