Gold Laced Cochins- Breeding advice? Pics on pg2, come critique!

[Coopa Cabana]

"If you don't have to wrestle with a male Cochin when you pick him up, he's not big enough. you want to know you have ahold of a big chicken when you pull him out of the cage. If he tucks nicely under your arm he's too small."

Fantastic description!!!

 

[Rare Feathers Farm]

Quote:
Thanks Tom!

It's been a long time coming on mine and I still have a ways to go...it's near impossible to get good GLC's so I'm making my own!

We'll keep in touch...eventually, I'll need some new blood in my flock to improve on their size--I'll see if I can get my hubby to take some pics of me holding my GL roo...he's pretty good sized...

 

[cochinman2005]

As far as Golden Laced Cochins go (this is a generalization and there's always exceptions), what I've seen either in person or in the photos posted on this thread and others the following applies:
1. GLC's are too small. Cochins are one of three Asiatic breeds and as a group the Asiatics are supposed to be some of the the largest birds out there.
2. GLC's are too light in color. The are supposed to have a rich bay ground color, not Buff, not light gold. the males are not evenly colored. Darker in the wing bar/bay areas than in the hackles and saddles.
3. GLC's are hocky. As a group they tend to carry fairly stiff hock feathers bordering on vulture hocks (more on VH later).
4. They're too rangy. A cochin needs to be slung low between two sturdy legs, not leggy, and slight looking.
5. They have poor heads. Cochins need to have some skull to them. you want width of skull and a good brow. that's what makes a good asiatic head.
6. The lacing is incomplete. Black half moon lacing at the tips of the feathers isn't lacing.
7. Poor shank feathering. Even though they may have feathered middle toes they can still have poor shank feathering. You don't want to see the inside of the shank when looking at the bird. Good shank feathering goes hand in hand with plenty of body fluff and feather mass in the bottom portion of the bird.

I'll add more to the list as it comes to me. I posted earlier that I had done some outcrosses, and I've done that both within the breed and crossing to SL Wyandottes. I've taken photos of this year's progress or perhaps lack of progress, but the first thing you have to focus on is the type. If you don't have to wrestle with a male Cochin when you pick him up, he's not big enough. you want to know you have ahold of a big chicken when you pull him out of the cage. If he tucks nicely under your arm he's too small. Refer to the standard for the appropriate weights. With Cochins, the feather mass is supposed to make them look bigger than they actually weigh. A cockerel is supposed to weigh 9 lbs, and a cock bird 11 lbs. They should look like they weigh about 15 lbs.

So, some pics, but first a brief explanation of what I did as far as breeding this year.
1. Bred two different matings of GLC X GLC (used 2 different cockerels with the females I used.
2. Crossed a GLC X SL Wyandotte
3. Crossed a GLC X more or less Buff Columbian looking female (this female is from a GLC x sort of Brown Red looking female from last year). The story behind this breeding is that I am also working to improve the cushions on my large Buff Cochins, so 3 years ago I crossed a White Cochin male (my white Cochins have very good cushions), and the best Buff Cochin female I had as far as cushion goes. The resulting birds (3 of them, I should have hatched more but it was at the end of breeding season and I wanted to be done) were 2 cockerels and 1 pullet. One of the cockerels was absolutely terrible. Stiff tail, stilty, not what a Cochin is supposed to be. The other cockerel was fantastic, and mostly Buff in color with slate undercolor, black tail etc. He had a great cushion but of course he died before I could use him. The pullet was a dull black color with straw colored hackle. Good sized bird, and a good cushion, so I used her the second year back to Buffs this time, but that breeding goes down the Buff cushion trail and not GLC. Also in the second year, I crossed that dull black female with straw colored hackles to a GL male. She also had very faint lacing in her chest and I figured it was worth a shot. The results of that cross were 4 sort of Buff Columbian looking birds, 2 males and 2 females. They were all very big birds. I didn't have much luck using the males, and they were rangier than I would have liked but I did hatch a few birds from one of the females. Photos below...

GLC X Buff Columbian - Very dark lacing, great size, lots of fluff (she wouldn't relax for the photo), way too light in the ground color

Chest shot of same bird.

Full sister to pullet above. She shows some lacing in the wing bar, and she's a good size bird with lots of fluff. Both of these females will be used for breeding. The focus with these two is improving type, adding size, and feather mass to the GLC's. Both have lacing, but the ground color is off so next year it would be expected that the ground color in their offspring will also be too light in ground color.

GLC X GLC pullet. Too light in ground color but getting there. Incomplete lacing in chest and lower hackle. She is a good sized bird, and shows some good promise in the cushion.

GLC X GLC cockerel. (He's wearing peepers). Too light in the hackle and saddle and no markings in the saddle (common defect in laced variety males). The only place they should have a solid band of color with no lacing is starting with the wing bow up over the middle of the back to the other side (if you have a copy of the 1998 Standard, refer to page 68 for the image of the SL Wyandotte male. If you don't have a copy of the 1998 SOP, I recommend it. The Black and White Schilling prints provide better examples of the birds than the color images in the newer standard. My opinion of course. The 1998 edition is $10 or $15 bucks from the APA.) Back to the cockerel. He is very large which is good. he's the same size as my Buffs and Whites that are the same age. He has good width across the back and a nice cushion. He still needs to have more body though. Oh yeah, he's a bit hocky. Not vulture hocked, but I'd like to see less stiffness to those hock feathers. All my GL males show this tendency, and to get rid of it you need to breed away from it. But you can't focus on everything as a primary breeding goal. The hock feathering will improve over time, and with the influence of the outcrosses.
The following photo is a shot of his primaries, which are very poorly marked, and also a common flaw. Wings are tough to get right in most patterned varieties.

Primaries are supposed to be black on the side of the quill toward the body (on the left in the photo) and lower edges a golden bay color (side of the quill to the right in the photo)

GLC X SL Wyandotte pullet. Good lacing front to back, decent ground color, (l'd like a notch darker though). Good lacing across the cape and back. Decent wing markings. You can see that the Black isn't as solid as it should be.

GLC X SL Wyandotte pullet. This one looks just like a Wyandotte. If she had a Rose comb and didn't have those feathers on her shanks...Pretty good lacing front to back although she get kind of mossy in the tail coverts area, which is also a common flaw in the females. Ground color is decent, and the lacing across the cape and back is good. She has prett good wing color.

Blaundee you asked for a critique. Your birds are young so it's tough to do that, but they do show many of the items I talked about above. Incomplete lacing, rangy, not enough mass etc. You have a picture of two pullets together (photo 18 in your photobucket folder). The pullet in the background has Vulture hocks. Do not use her for breeding. That will cause more problems down the line than you want to deal with. The females as a group are way too light. Basically a Buff ground color when you want to aim for a golden bay.

SWheat, I like the hen in the photos you posted. She looks to carry good size and has a decent head. Still too light, but looks more like a Cochin like they should.

So how to breed them up in size and for better color. PATIENCE! you can't fix everything at once, and it's nice to see that there is an interest in this variety because there hasn't been in a long time. An outcross to a solid colored bird will be problematic because you'll lose the pattern and breeding to get the pattern back may take you back where you started. Always choose for type first. Read the standard and have an image in your mind based upon the words in there. It's better to use 2 average typed birds for breeding than a whole flock of poorly typed birds. Hatching large numbers will help. The addage a needle in a haystack is appropriate here. If you only hatch 20, the 21st bird you didn't hatch might be the one you needed. You can do an outcross to a solid color and if you do, I'd go with Black. you never know what White is hiding so at least you know what you have with Blacks and they are some of the best typed large Cochins out there. Select for color after type. You can outcross to a different breed, but you'll be dealing with type differences and in the case of Wyandottes, clean legs vs. feathered legs. Incidentally, the SL Dottes I used were single combed. That way I didn't have to deal with comb issues. The Wyandottes produce a certain number of single combs usually so if you want to go that route ask the dotte breeder for a single combed bird if he/she has one.

I am posting a couple pics of Blacks and Whites as a reference, so you can see what I am talking about as far as being low slung, feather mass, feather width, heads, type etc. All of the birds in these photos (above and below) were hatched between February and May and Cochins don't achieve their full size until the second year.

 

[Coopa Cabana]

Quote:
Tom, this is just great - a lot to absorb, and I'm still working thru it, and picking out what I can apply to my bantam GL's. But one question did pop out on my first pass thru. While I think outcrossing to a different breed should be left to those much more knowledgeable than myself, could you elaborate on why you used a GLC roo x SLW pullet vs a SLW roo x GLC hen? And why did you use a SLW instead of a GLW?

 

[dak]

I think I can help here. Using a siver laced hen, the resulting offspring will be all gold laced females because of the sex linked gene. The cock will determine the pullet's color. The boys will have one gold and one silver gene.

 

[Rare Feathers Farm]

Thanks again, Tom...I'll see if I can get my husband to take a photo of me holding one of my roosters for size reference. I would guess he's close to 10-12lbs, though. He's not as large as my Light Sussex but those are monsters.

Edited to add...

so if I wanted to work on size & type without outcrossing to another breed--would a black cochin hen be my best bet?

 

[blaundee]

Thanks Tom!

Would adding partridge help the ground color to darken up?

 

[cochinman2005]

RE: GLC X SL Dotte vs. SL Dotte X GLC. DAK is correct in the sex linkage information. The other reason I did it that way is because the SLW's are easier to come by and tend to be very deep in the body and also have good size. Also, the females tend to have better lacing and markings than the males.

RE: Outcrossing to Black for size. Certainly that would do it, but the first generation birds would be mostly black in color with most likely some gold in the hackle/saddle in the males. It will take some time to get the color pattern back.

RE: Outcross to a PArtridge to darken the color. Possibly, but remember you want to make an outcross that makes sense from a type perspective if you are staying within the breed. The Partridge tend to be too small and too light in color. If you can find a large mahogany colored female with good type it would be worth a shot.

 

[dak]

I have seen white tipped foot feathers in a few of my GLCs. Is this also a problem with this variety, or just something that pops up in any color?

 

[cochinman2005]

Quote:
Based upon what I've seen so far, it's an issue with the GLC's, as well as some of the other patterned varieties. I see it in my Large PArtridge too. Usually on the males. Interestingly enough the couple cockerels I have that show the white tips on their foot feathering are also fairly well marked in the primaries.