Gun control and the second amendment....

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A trained officer is very different from a teenager that grabbed his dad's gun.

And you nicely ignored the previous article I posted, providing a perfect instance of a civilian protecting others with his gun. Would you like me to link you to an article showing NUMEROUS times a civilian stopped a rampage before it could get started, including saving a cop in one instance? Even if you don't, I'll post it anyway. http://fromthetrenchesworldreport.com/mass-killings-stopped-by-armed-citizens/28307/

By the way, here's what a friend of mine (a police officer and strong advocate of gun rights) wrote.

"The sole purpose of a firearm is not "to kill." The purpose of a firearm is to launch a projectile at a high rate of speed. It is the current most technologically advanced object in a technology tree that more or less started with throwing rocks, progressed to the sling, the slingshot, the bow, the crossbow, the cannon, the blunderbuss, the musket, and so on. The only real difference is the lev...
el of technology involved in each. What makes the bow viewable as primarily a recreational tool but a firearm as something different? Or even an antique firearm as opposed to a modern one? The answer is simple: it's what the police/military currently use. Are any of those other things less lethal? No. Are any of them less appropriate to use to kill something? It depends on your purpose. Honestly, there are a variety of situations where a bow is actually preferable to a gun. The issue isn't lethality, it's what we see soldiers holding or cops holstering. The issue isn't danger, as any of those things can severely maim, injure, or kill someone if misused. There are also a plethora of more dangerous activities than carrying or using guns, such as driving a car, or going to the doctor, both of which claim vastly more lives per year than firearms.

No, what we have as a society is a stigma that disarmament is somehow more morally appropriate than bearing arms. This is the first time in history in which a man's weapons were not only for personal protection, but were also a point of pride. From the sword of a samurai, to the rapier of a nobleman, to the revolver of the cattleman, a man's personal weapon has been a part of his legacy. Society today tells us that somehow this is uncouth behavior. Be it from the feminization of society or the unwillingness of modern adults to take personal responsibility for their actions, weapons in general, but firearms more specifically, have been villainized in the media. Defending yourself has become politically incorrect both on the moral and physical front. As a result, the natural inclination of our society is to become a collective of victims. Gone are the days of individualism and pride in one's ability to care for himself. Now we are a society that begs for handouts and sues at the drop of a hat.

Symptomatic of that deeper issue is the stigma about firearms. Again, it's not an issue of lethality or danger, as people partake in lethal or dangerous activities on a daily basis without a second thought. For whatever reason, whenever someone sees a gun in the hands of a soldier or cop, they feel safe, but in the hands of another citizen, they feel threatened. Somehow society has this idea that those classes of people are different. From personal experience, I can say authoritatively that we are not. The only difference between me as a cop and me as a private citizen is that once I was given a badge, I was officially employed by a government entity. The common argument is “cops are trained, citizens aren't.” Honestly, that argument is mostly just misleading. Cops do receive training on how to use their duty weapon. They also must prove their ability to shoot said weapon before being allowed to carry it on duty. This may come as a surprise to many, but so do concealed carry permit holders. In order to obtain a concealed carry permit, one must take a class on pertinent laws and regulations, as well as on function of a firearm. They must then demonstrate their ability to use their firearm. Then they go through background checks before being issued their permit. All in all, police qualification is only marginally more stringent when it comes to the weapons that are carried.

To step beyond just guns for a moment. As I said before, firearms are the current weapon stigma, but more often than not they are not the weapon of choice for criminals. Precisely because of the increased difficulty in procuring them illegally as well as the increased charges that will be made when they are caught. In fact, the most common weapon used in crimes are the criminal's bare hands. In reality, criminals will use anything and everything available to them to assault someone, from kitchen knives to potted plants, and even to a shopping bag, those are examples of weapons I have personally seen used to commit crimes. Similarly, in our jail, we routinely confiscate every day items such as bars of soap, socks, and toothbrushes which have been weaponized. The deranged do not discriminate by the intended purpose of an item, they will weaponize anything they can get their hands on.

Another common misconception is that a firearm is a complicated affair which takes training and mastery to use. While it takes training to achieve a level of proficiency, as with any task, a firearm isn't even as complicated or difficult to use as an automobile. This also accounts for why far more people die in car accidents than they do in firearm accidents. Guns don't just magically go off and kill people. As a matter of fact, in one day, 84,999,989 gun owning Americans don't kill anyone. The reason this is never reported is because it's not newsworthy. People going about their daily business not harming anyone and living out their lives peacefully will not give the media the viewership they need corporately to stay afloat. What makes the news is when a lone man with a weapon (remember, guns are the hot button) manages to take the lives of many innocents. If someone stops him prematurely (like in the Clackamas Town Center), then it's not nearly as “big news,” so coverages is dropped in favor of something that will catch people's attention for longer. But we as law enforcement don't stop paying attention. There isn't a cop in the country who would rather read a story about 26 dead including 18 children, so we pay attention to the less “big” stories. We go on calls where acts of violence have been committed. We respond when someone is in fear of their life. We see firsthand how the criminal element works, and we look for ways to stop them. As a result, we see what happens when the responsible stand up against the reckless. We see that, hey, in this attempted mass shooting, one man in the crowd with a CCW not only used his pistol to stop a man with a rifle from killing God only knows how many people, but he did it without even firing a shot.

Additionally, and I won't elaborate too extensively on how, criminals don't care if they can legally own guns or not. Point in case, the young man who killed those elementary students stole the weapons he used. They were not legally obtained. Gun control laws told him “no, you can't have these,” so he went out and procured them all on his own. The same gun control laws that said, “no, you can't take these into a school” were also ignored, along with the laws that said, “no, you can't slaughter 26 people like animals just because you feel like it.” These are not the actions of a responsible person. These are the actions of a monster.

In summation, though I could say far more on the subject:

-Guns are not “killing machines,” as is frequently insinuated. They're a piece of equipment.
-There's nothing “special” about a cop that makes us magically capable of handling a gun responsibly where any other citizen cannot. Cops make mistakes and other citizens do things right. We're only human, just like that CCW holder. If you're afraid he's going to randomly shoot you because you made him angry, there's no reason you shouldn't hold the same fear of a cop. It's an irrational fear, but you ought to at least be consistent.
-If you're afraid of that CCW holder using his gun on you, you should also be afraid of him using his shoe, car keys, pocket knife, or anything else in arm's length on you.
-No law will ever stop the lawless."
 
Blaming a tool for how it's used seems silly doesn't it? I remember reading about someone being killed with a hammer. Maybe we need more hammer control.

This is drastically over simplifying the issue. There will be crime and murder no matter what laws are put in place. But, you can not kill 30 people in 10 minutes from a cozy distance with a hammer unless you are fictional movie spy able to defy physics.

I don't think anyone is arguing that gun control will eliminate all crime and death.

I think at the heart of this is a need to understand why this keeps happening and I think a discussion of guns in America is a part of that. You can have your opinion and still listen to others, even without changing your mind. There are good points on both sides.

You do not want to give up freedoms out of fear but at the same time you are dealing with something that is a potential threat to public safety and it appears increasing so.

Silly statements make it seems like you aren't really listening.
 
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Quote: Skipping the ones that were crimes, because you focused on 'rampages', one, the gunman was stopped while fleeing, not stopped from initial harm, and the two others involved police officers.

One of the crimes, the shooter was stopped after he had killed his chosen victims, for a couple of the others the guns came out after the criminal was leaving, It looks like only two fit the bill of 'civilian protecting others' - the gun shop, which I couldn't find any report of other than from pro-gun sites, and the grocery store, for which I also couldn't find any non-pro-gun accounts of, except this one, which is actually a pretty good read: http://the-truth-it-just-came-out.blogspot.com/2009_07_01_archive.html
 
Skipping the ones that were crimes, because you focused on 'rampages', one, the gunman was stopped while fleeing, not stopped from initial harm, and the two others involved police officers.

One of the crimes, the shooter was stopped after he had killed his chosen victims, for a couple of the others the guns came out after the criminal was leaving, It looks like only two fit the bill of 'civilian protecting others' - the gun shop, which I couldn't find any report of other than from pro-gun sites, and the grocery store, for which I also couldn't find any non-pro-gun accounts of, except this one, which is actually a pretty good read: http://the-truth-it-just-came-out.blogspot.com/2009_07_01_archive.html

I counted well over two. Pearl High School, Muskegon store, New Life church, Santa Clara gunshop, Golden Food Market, and Early, Texas (where a mere mortal saved a POLICE OFFICER). That's six.

Even when police are considered, the same freaking principal still stands - an armed, competent person is very capable of saving many lives. In ALL of these instances, with the possible exception of Appalachian, armed citizens saved lives.
 

What's your point? I could just as easily argue that cops are bad by pointing you to dozens upon dozens of instances of murder by police, police brutality, corruption, etc.

If you're going to link me to the joke known as the VPC, have some actual facts that provide legitimate context for their statistics. http://gunowners.org/just-for-skeptics.htm
 
How about alcohol control? Its only purpose is to intoxicate, after all, and we all know that leads in many instances to violence and/or drunk driving. Let's ban it, too! Because that worked out really well last time!


You can have my bourbon when you pry it from my cold, dead hands.

And I'm warning you -- I have a baseball bat!
 
Fienstien said she will reintroduce the assault weapons ban bill when they reconvene in Jan. She says all legally owned assault weapons would be grandfathered in . What a relief, I won't have to make melt mine down and make paperclips out of it. ;)
 
More facts.

http://jpfo.org/pdf03/gun-facts-v6.0-screen.pdf

Feel free to skip to the section regarding concealed carry if you want, though I'd encourage reading as much as possible.
None of this is news. Doesn't include any comparisons to states where weapons aren't allowed - because there aren't any. Most comparisons to countries that disallow casual carrying of firearms show that murder is lower in those countries.

Doesn't change the reality that there are bad people who also have gun permits. How about we just accept that, and work on keeping the guns away from the bad people? I don't understand why that idea is so offensive to you.
 
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