HELP DIAGNOSE OUR MYSTERY ILLNESS.

[TwoCrows]

Quote: You did say it was an antibacterial. Read your first line....

Your Quote:
Good assistance with info. X2.
Might want to back off on the ACV too. ACV is an antibacterial and strips the intestinal lining when given too often. It also washes out much needed calcium before mature birds have a chance to absorb it. I'll never understand the trend/obsession with ACV as some kind of wonder tonic when probiotics and properly formulated feed is so much more important.

According to the Dictionary the meaning of Antibacterial is:
An antibacterial is an agent that inhibits bacterial growth or kills bacteria.[1] The term is often used synonymously with the term antibiotic(s).

Apple Cider Vinegar does not inhibit bacterial growth or kill bacteria. I just wanted to get this straight in case someone reads this and assumes they can use ACV to kill bacteria.

 

[TwoCrows]

X2. It does raise the pH level and really should only be given for one week a month for the nutrient value. But I don't believe it's a cure all. In my humble opinion it's being over used. In some research I've done it should not be given longer than one week a month.personally I use a good probotic that provides beneficial bacteria that their system needs.over use of acv can actually unbalance their system by making it too acidic. You want and need a good balanced system by adding beneficial bacteria and not making such a acidic environment. So I use a powdered probotic for poultry that includes several different beneficial bacterias.

X3

I agree it is not a cure all for anything. However, like other supplements added to the diet, it may help to prevent issues in the bird. Many pathogens thrive in low ph environments and by raising the ph a tad in the body can help to reduce the likelyhood that they take hold. At least this is the theory.

 

[Michael Apple]

You did say it was an antibacterial. Read your first line....


Copper sulfate, Sulfadimethoxine, and ACV are known for antibacterial qualities, but are not classified or labeled as antibiotics. Because a substance is antibacterial does not mean they are all one category, i.e. bacterial agents versus bacteriostatic agents. Like antibiotics, they should not be given on a regular basis, be they organic or synthesized. The cell walls of fungal cells are chitinous unlike the cell walls of bacterial organisms. You claimed ACV is anti-fungal which is not true, and will not remedy aspergillosis, moniliasis, or mycotoxicosis . Post after post has come and gone in the Emergencies section of the forum where someone was dealing with sour crop and ACV was used, yet the sour crop persisted.

Apple Cider Vinegar does not inhibit bacterial growth or kill bacteria. I just wanted to get this straight in case someone reads this and assumes they can use ACV to kill bacteria.

It is more antibacterial than anti-fungal as you stated before. What matters most is what it does to intestinal flora. Hopefully you read the information I provided in links on my previous post.

 

[TwoCrows]

I am not for or against ACV or its qualities. I personally am a fan of probiotics and use them daily in feed or water. I believe one of the the keys to good health is keeping the crop and intestinal tract in good bacteria. However, I do use ACV as well. I have read enough over the years about probiotics and ACV that no, I have not read your links, however I am sure they say it all.

I want people that go thru this thread and read that ACV is an antibacterial, will understand while it may have antibacterial "qualities" about it as you say, it does not kill or inhibit bacterial growth, which is what an "antibacterial" does. That is all..

 

[TwoCrows]

More about ACV and PH:

Apple Cider Vinegar has been defined with "antibacterial properties". This does not mean that it inhibits or kills bacteria. ACV it's self has no ability to kill anything. ACV has many qualities about it, however the main reason it is used is to raise the PH of the body. Using ACV to raise PH doesn't happen over night and can take weeks or months of constant use to raise the ph from acid to alkaline. It is the long term, or on and off use of it that changes the body. And it is this changing of the ph that gives it this term of having "antibacterial properties".

You have heard the saying, "you are what you eat". If you were to only consume meats, starches, oils and dairy products, and all these are considered highly acidic foods, your body's ph level would be quite low. Adding certain veggies and fruits to your diet helps to balance things and keep your ph closer to 7 or higher on the scale, 7 being neutral. Hence the reason they are always pushing those dreaded fruits and veggies on us! LOL You would become quite sick if your body's ph dropped too much below 5 or 4 on the ph scale. Our bodies need a slightly higher ph balance to stay healthy. Along with the foods we eat, our environment, stress and health can effect the ph of our bodies.

So it is the raising of the ph in your body with certain foods, including ACV, this is where having these antibacterial properties comes from. Pathogens can not survive in extremely high alkaline environments. There are even studies being done with cancer cells and they are finding that they too do not survive in high alkaline environments. Science is looking further into the use of baking soda, which is extremely high in ph, and the effects it may have on cancerous tumors. I am sure at these very high levels, even good bacteria would be killed off in our bodies as well. However it would take very high amounts over very long periods of time to raise the ph so high that it would kill off all bacteria.

So, all this being said, using ACV is an attempt to raise the ph of a body, and this includes our poultry, so that it is more resistant to these harmful pathogens. The body it's self is responsible for killing off the bacterias, not the ACV.

ACV, many fruits and veggies are not all that high on the ph scale and some are even considered acidic. But after the body processes these foods, the chemical reactions from these foods raise the ph.

And what does all this have to do with our poultry? It works the same in the bodies of our birds. If they are not all that healthy, looking poorly or we just want to help keep them healthy, adding ACV to the diet a few times a month, over time, will keep the ph balanced in their bodies and hopefully help ward off dangerous pathogens that might weaken or even kill our birds. Sickness and disease occurs in low ph environments.

 

[Eggcessive]

Maybe I can't remember my chemistry very well, but doesn't acid have a low pH (under 7), and alkaline is a higher pH (over 7), and ACV being an acid, would lower the pH making things more acid? Is this right or wrong?

 

[casportpony]

Maybe I can't remember my chemistry very well, but doesn't acid have a low pH (under 7), and alkaline is a higher pH (over 7), and ACV being an acid, would lower the pH making things more acid? Is this right or wrong?

I *think* you are correct, hence the reason some say not to give ACV when a hen has sour crop.

-Kathy

 

[TwoCrows]

ACV is an acid, lower in ph. But when processed by the digestive tract, it raises the ph. High ph in the crop is what you want. So if ACV is given regularly, it is less likely a bird will develop sour crop because the crop's ph is higher. If a bird has a sour crop, offering up ACV is not going to cure a sour crop. But it helps in the long run to help prevent it in the future.

 

[biga]

Maybe I can't remember my chemistry very well, but doesn't acid have a low pH (under 7), and alkaline is a higher pH (over 7), and ACV being an acid, would lower the pH making things more acid? Is this right or wrong?

correct, vinegar is acetic acid.

 

[TwoCrows]

Yeast infections in the crop result from low ph levels in the crop. When the ph lowers in the crop, the good bacteria die off. As you know, the crop being a place for food waiting to be processed, it needs good bacteria. Low ph destroys the good bacteria's, high ph supports it.

Adding ACV during an attack of sour crop, will not make things worse. ACV, undiluted has a ph value of somewhere around 5. By diluting it to tap water, which is somewhere between 6 and 7 and higher with hard water, will actually raise the entire mixture up enough that it should help matters, not make it worse.