Heritage Large Fowl - Phase II

[gjensen]

If you have 15-20 more behind them to pick from, why keep either? They aren't what you want, keep moving along. Remember you'll only have what you tolerate, most people keep far far too many birds. Keep it simple, if you have more coming up and neither of these cockerels fit the bill, ditch them. I did that this year with my Leghorns, none of the first batch of cockerels had what I was looking for, so they all went away.

This is along the lines of what I was thinking. Why keep something that you do not like? That is good advice. There is more on the way, and even next year. I would not want to replace a cock until I had better or just had to.

Then I wondered the age, and if the smaller one had time to get to a good weight. Sometimes a cockerel does not compete well with another or others, and is smaller as a result. If I like them, I am tempted to put him in with some pullets and see where he ends up. Sometimes they catch up. Sometimes not.

He would have to be pretty darn good for me to keep him in the end, and there has to be something that convinces me. I would not keep an equal where another was able to compete.

I tend to do this every year. When I go through to pull the first round of culls in the 12 wk range, there is always a smaller one that shows promise that I am just not ready to give up on him. I put them in with a batch of pullets and see where he ends up. I have had a couple turn out ok, and mostly I decide against them.

I want to cull for vigor, but I am hesitant to cull for pecking order. There is always someone on the bottom until you only have one bird. I have seen it switch along the way to. Who is dominant now, is not necessarily dominant later. For this reason, I will give a young male a "second chance", here and there.

 

[pigsflyacres]

well, I am not Jennifer, but this also applies to me, and I am not sure I know these answers. I would appreciate anyone knowledgeable about Dorkings correcting my knowledge deficits.

1. Classic strains-Urch, (contributed to McMurray strain,); TIce (became Troxel birds,); Horstman; Wetterstroem. I am very unsure of this.
2. Interrelated-as above
3. Color-Silver Grey, established and recognized in SOP, still rare.
4. Not aware of any acceptable color crosses.
5. I have Urch and McMurray birds.

eta: I am currently very concerned about poor hatchability. This season I have hatched about 20% of the eggs I placed in the incubator. Essentially all were fertile. The individual hatches have produced between 0 and 62.5% hatches, as I have tinkered with temp/humidity/ventilation. Hatches improved once I got the air cells to appropriate size and added daily cooling-off spells. I am currently looking at possible dietary changes and doing lots of test matings looking for pairs that nick, or individuals that throw non-vigorous offspring. After discussion on other threads and other forums, this is a Dorking-wide problem, not specific to a region, breeder, line or feed ration. Suggestions?

Ok I have Reds so can't comment too much on the SGs.

the Troxel birds came from Roger Tice who got his birds from Jeanine Peters who got her birds from Craig Russell.
Some of the Lines of the Horstman birds go back to Craig also. Same with Sandhill. If you have birds from Ed Hart they probably also came from Craig, or mostly. The problem is that Craig spent a lot of time tracking down Dorking flocks and then preserving them and sending stock out. There used to be several types of Reds. They crop up sometimes in the Horstman flock I understand. The more clay color birds anyway.

I can use Silver Grey hens as an outcross. Its been done in the past. SGs can outcross to Reds but it takes an extra generation to get back to SG. Craig implied that it used to be done frequently. With Reds I could go to a RC cross for on outcross line. I would go back to Craig if I did that.

Dorkings of any quality are few and far between in any variety. So I have to plan for that being the case in 5 or 10 years.

 

[BGMatt]

This is along the lines of what I was thinking. Why keep something that you do not like? That is good advice. There is more on the way, and even next year. I would not want to replace a cock until I had better or just had to.

Then I wondered the age, and if the smaller one had time to get to a good weight. Sometimes a cockerel does not compete well with another or others, and is smaller as a result. If I like them, I am tempted to put him in with some pullets and see where he ends up. Sometimes they catch up. Sometimes not.

He would have to be pretty darn good for me to keep him in the end, and there has to be something that convinces me. I would not keep an equal where another was able to compete.

I tend to do this every year. When I go through to pull the first round of culls in the 12 wk range, there is always a smaller one that shows promise that I am just not ready to give up on him. I put them in with a batch of pullets and see where he ends up. I have had a couple turn out ok, and mostly I decide against them.

I want to cull for vigor, but I am hesitant to cull for pecking order. There is always someone on the bottom until you only have one bird. I have seen it switch along the way to. Who is dominant now, is not necessarily dominant later. For this reason, I will give a young male a "second chance", here and there.

If I'm fortunate to have enough in an age range in a batch and not get all strung out across different ages (like happened this year) I cull out the bottom 10-20% of each sex starting at week 8 and every 4 weeks after that, and mark the top 10% all purely based on size/weight. I puts some mild pressure on growth rate, and the ones that lag behind never do catch up, even if they do...why encourage that struggle and slow development?

 

[gjensen]

If I'm fortunate to have enough in an age range in a batch and not get all strung out across different ages (like happened this year) I cull out the bottom 10-20% of each sex starting at week 8 and every 4 weeks after that, and mark the top 10% all purely based on size/weight. I puts some mild pressure on growth rate, and the ones that lag behind never do catch up, even if they do...why encourage that struggle and slow development?

I get that logic. I trend towards it myself.

I tend to wait a little longer. If I have grown them out to 8wks, I am going to give them a little longer and eat them. So I wait until 12 wks to choose and a couple more weeks to do a big cull. Then I will keep what I feel like I can finish growing out plus a few more knowing that over the next 4 - 8wks, others will go. I put pretty heavy pressure on growth rate because of the breed that I have kept the most. A breed that is supposed to be known for good growth rates.

I do not agree that all that lag behind will not catch up. I would agree that many do not catch up. I have had some that did. Sometimes it is competition that is the issue and not genetic potential. I have had a couple along the way that surpassed many of the hatch mates that were ahead in the end. You have to keep in mind that I am not talking about runts, like your bottom 10%. My big cull a little later is more like 50%. I am referring to birds that are marginal, not defective.

I have also seen cockerels kept in pairs or small groups where one would not let the other get to the feeder often. The bottom bird in the pecking order, may have equal or greater potential otherwise. He is just not getting enough feed for rapid growth. The bird separated will often do well, and catch up. If there is two or three birds kept together, one is going to be on the bottom. And it might be a good bird.

I eventually, gradually, move them to finish growing out individually. Gets the ones that make it that far an equal opportunity, so to speak.

 

[MagicChicken]

Quote:
These six-month-old cockerels have yellow soles and have grown much larger much faster than my other birds. They were broody raised from a fall hatch. The size/growth advantage may have been due to timing and broody influences more than genetics. Yellow soles are a breed requirement, a DQ if absent, and a fleeting feature in my flock. It appears to be a recessive trait. I need to keep a few yellow-soled males around as insurance against losing that trait. At the moment I only have one cock. Until I know for sure the birds coming up are better I plan on keeping a couple of these six-month guys for insurance.

The younger birds coming up are from known breeding pairs. On paper they should be better. Unfortunately the cock who sired many of them turned relentlessly aggressive and is now in my freezer. He was my largest male and the only male I had with dark eyes and black shanks - breed characteristics I need to keep in the gene pool. So I have to keep some of his chicks. Then the most productive hen died a premature death, apparently from some internal problem because her abdomen had a lot of fluid in it. These younger birds may look better but they may not actually be better for use in a breeding program. The only thing I can do is grow them out and see how they develop and behave over the next two or three years before I actually breed from them.

Back to the issue at hand, I think triangle-back is going. "His shape annoys me" said it all.

Sarah

 

[gjensen]

These six-month-old cockerels have yellow soles and have grown much larger much faster than my other birds. They were broody raised from a fall hatch. The size/growth advantage may have been due to timing and broody influences more than genetics. Yellow soles are a breed requirement, a DQ if absent, and a fleeting feature in my flock. It appears to be a recessive trait. I need to keep a few yellow-soled males around as insurance against losing that trait. At the moment I only have one cock. Until I know for sure the birds coming up are better I plan on keeping a couple of these six-month guys for insurance.

The younger birds coming up are from known breeding pairs. On paper they should be better. Unfortunately the cock who sired many of them turned relentlessly aggressive and is now in my freezer. He was my largest male and the only male I had with dark eyes and black shanks - breed characteristics I need to keep in the gene pool. So I have to keep some of his chicks. Then the most productive hen died a premature death, apparently from some internal problem because her abdomen had a lot of fluid in it. These younger birds may look better but they may not actually be better for use in a breeding program. The only thing I can do is grow them out and see how they develop and behave over the next two or three years before I actually breed from them.

Back to the issue at hand, I think triangle-back is going. "His shape annoys me" said it all.

Sarah

I find myself holding onto traits that is a "fleeting feature" in my flock of Cats. I feel like I have to. I do not want to lose anything that I have.

 

[har]

Thanks Scott.
I heard that pure breeds feather out slower.
Can't wait to get my chicks.
This is my first Standard bred bird.

Best of luck with them I am sure you enjoy them. I have some NH from Jeremy and they are great chickens.

Scott

 

[pigsflyacres]

Yes, the chicks are all hatched with individual ids and the Breeder is keeping records.

I really hope it helps! SG Dorkings are having problems like this for a lot of people.

So has anyone actually talked to Craig Russell about this problem? The man is very willing to talk. And there is a strong possibility that the birds trace back to him at the very least partially. I really didn't explore how to use Reds to reinvigorate SGs. I was more interested in Reds I've crossed Reds with SG hens before. The resulting cockerels were culls and they were monster birds. The pullets I used. They had some color problems that I didn't get resolved before I lost my flock. Mostly a problem with black on the head. Size and vigor was very good. No problems with off color legs or missing toes. Sorry. I know YHF has experience crossing Whites and SGs. You do get all sorts of stuff crop up so you have to hatch a ton and cull very hard. Which I did not do. I now know better.

Jennifer

 

[Lacy Blues]

I was glancing in my Chicken Health Handbook by Gail Damerow... (I know, I know) anyway, it says in there that the SG Dorking has a lethal gene that causes death in the 9th day of incubation. Embryos have short necks and beaks. She explains that a lethal gene is one that shows up when two birds of the same trait are mated. She also states that one way to avoid the effects of lethal genes is to avoid mating closely related birds. Another way is to deliberately mate related birds and try to ferret out and cull breeders carrying lethal genes.

I don't take this info or book as gospel at all it just caught my eye when I was looking for something else and I remembered the discussion on here about the silver grays and thought I would share.

 

[southernmomma]

I was glancing in my Chicken Health Handbook by Gail Damerow... (I know, I know) anyway, it says in there that the SG Dorking has a lethal gene that causes death in the 9th day of incubation. Embryos have short necks and beaks. She explains that a lethal gene is one that shows up when two birds of the same trait are mated. She also states that one way to avoid the effects of lethal genes is to avoid mating closely related birds. Another way is to deliberately mate related birds and try to ferret out and cull breeders carrying lethal genes.

I don't take this info or book as gospel at all it just caught my eye when I was looking for something else and I remembered the discussion on here about the silver grays and thought I would share.

Is this similar or the same as the creeper gene?
Learning

M