Heritage Large Fowl - Phase II

[Lacy Blues]

I am the furthest thing from a genetics expert you could ever hope to find on the entire planet... but... creeper is also apparently considered to be lethal. Just a quick online search brought up information that said:

An example is the "creeper" allele in chickens, which causes the legs to be short and stunted.

• Creeper is a dominant gene, heterozygous chickens display the creeper phenotype
• If two creeper chickens are crossed, one would expect to have (from mendelian genetics) 3/4 of the offspring to be creeper and 1/4 to be normal
• Instead the ratio obtained is 2/3 creeper and 1/3 normal.
• This occurs because homozygous creeper chickens die.

I can't be more help than that.

Now, I know this thread is going to turn to a conversation on genetics by those in the know so I'll go ahead and get my bottle of excedrin ready.

 

[southernmomma]

I am the furthest thing from a genetics expert you could ever hope to find on the entire planet... but... creeper is also apparently considered to be lethal. Just a quick online search brought up information that said:

An example is the "creeper" allele in chickens, which causes the legs to be short and stunted.

• Creeper is a dominant gene, heterozygous chickens display the creeper phenotype
• If two creeper chickens are crossed, one would expect to have (from mendelian genetics) 3/4 of the offspring to be creeper and 1/4 to be normal
• Instead the ratio obtained is 2/3 creeper and 1/3 normal.
• This occurs because homozygous creeper chickens die.

I can't be more help than that.

Now, I know this thread is going to turn to a conversation on genetics by those in the know so I'll go ahead and get my bottle of excedrin ready.

I did the same, answered my own questions

Looking forward to the headache inducing discussion though~ should be interesting at least!

Thanks,
M

 

[ronott1]

So has anyone actually talked to Craig Russell about this problem? The man is very willing to talk. And there is a strong possibility that the birds trace back to him at the very least partially. I really didn't explore how to use Reds to reinvigorate SGs. I was more interested in Reds I've crossed Reds with SG hens before. The resulting cockerels were culls and they were monster birds. The pullets I used. They had some color problems that I didn't get resolved before I lost my flock. Mostly a problem with black on the head. Size and vigor was very good. No problems with off color legs or missing toes. Sorry. I know YHF has experience crossing Whites and SGs. You do get all sorts of stuff crop up so you have to hatch a ton and cull very hard. Which I did not do. I now know better.

Jennifer

I think the breeder has talked to most of the major SG Dorking breeders. I know Urch has been having problems too and she has been in contact with him.

Hopefully it will be better soon.

For the current hatch, it goes:

Hens:

048: 15 set, 9 pulled- 6 moved to hatcher
035/R7: 3 set 2 pulled- 1 moved to hatcher
036: 1 set 0 pulled- 1 moved to hatcher
W27: 8 set all pulled
W33: 10 set 6 pulled 4 moved to hatcher

Most of the pulled ones were clears. There were 4 early quitters and blood rings.

37 set and 12 made it to day 18.

Hatching at the same time, same Flock conditions and incubating, Two Del Hens set 21 eggs and 17 made it to day 18.

Quite frustrating.

 

[fowlman01]

I was glancing in my Chicken Health Handbook by Gail Damerow... (I know, I know)  anyway, it says in there that the SG Dorking has a lethal gene that causes death in the 9th day of incubation.  Embryos have short necks and beaks.  She explains that a lethal gene is one that shows up when two birds of the same trait are mated.  She also states that one way to avoid the effects of lethal genes is to avoid mating closely related birds.  Another way is to deliberately mate related birds and try to ferret out and cull breeders carrying lethal genes.

I don't take this info or book as gospel at all it just caught my eye when I was looking for something else and I remembered the discussion on here about the silver grays and thought I would share.

you seem to already know that some of Gail's information is sketchy and you are correct. Gail pretty much copies all her information from other sources. Some not reliable. She lived down the street from me and we were business partners for a couple of years. She puts out great stuff for newbies, but take some of it with a grain of salt. She did raise chickens for 5 years or so, so she does have some skills, but she could never breed any good birds. I helped her and her then husband but neither one of them had the knack or the eye. They are both good at collecting and pulling together information though.

Walt

 

[gjensen]

you seem to already know that some of Gail's information is sketchy and you are correct. Gail pretty much copies all her information from other sources. Some not reliable. She lived down the street from me and we were business partners for a couple of years. She puts out great stuff for newbies, but take some of it with a grain of salt. She did raise chickens for 5 years or so, so she does have some skills, but she could never breed any good birds. I helped her and her then husband but neither one of them had the knack or the eye. They are both good at collecting and pulling together information though.

Walt

That is what I found. A good introduction, and a good place to start. Over time, I have started re learning a few things that I picked up.

 

[gjensen]

I still think that Craig is the guy to talk to concerning Dorkings. Who has more experience with them than him? I do not know if he would appreciate every Dorking keeper in the country contacting him. I imagine that he has written a couple articles along the way. I am sure that he is interested in seeing them do well.
I also suspect that there is a few more working with them than is realized. I have noticed a few that is not mentioned on the net, etc. There are some that are into this that are not public. I think there is more Dorkings out there to work with than what is realized. I am not saying that they are in good shape, just that there is something to work with. No facts, just an impression.

 

[pigsflyacres]

George, yes there are a lot of Dorking folk that are not on the net. That is one of the frustrating things. Craig is a perfect example. He's written lots of articles about the birds, he's willing to talk. But he's not on the net. Heck he doesn't have a cell phone. He really has done a good job researching them and preserving them. I do not know what the quality is of his birds. My guess is that they are a good place to start a breeding program. There are probably others who know the history of the breed in this country as well as he does, but they are harder to contact. He's pretty much made himself the spokesperson.

I think reds are in the best shape of the varieties simply because no one could agree on what version of red was to be in the standard. So they were late getting in. More genetic variation as lines were consolidated. But we can go to RC birds. They didn't get into the standard, but are historically correct. The problem seems to be that few work with them for very long. Finding a flock older than 10 years is hard.

I think if it was me and I really wanted vigorous SGs and was willing to hatch like crazy and cull hard, I'd find out how to use Red Dorkings as an outcross altho there may be a better variety to use. YHF did it with his whites using SGs. He got good results but he had to cull a lot of birds.

The other option is try to isolate the gene causing the issues. Both options are going to be time consuming.

Jennifer

 

[BGMatt]

George, yes there are a lot of Dorking folk that are not on the net. That is one of the frustrating things. Craig is a perfect example. He's written lots of articles about the birds, he's willing to talk. But he's not on the net. Heck he doesn't have a cell phone. He really has done a good job researching them and preserving them. I do not know what the quality is of his birds. My guess is that they are a good place to start a breeding program. There are probably others who know the history of the breed in this country as well as he does, but they are harder to contact. He's pretty much made himself the spokesperson.

I think reds are in the best shape of the varieties simply because no one could agree on what version of red was to be in the standard. So they were late getting in. More genetic variation as lines were consolidated. But we can go to RC birds. They didn't get into the standard, but are historically correct. The problem seems to be that few work with them for very long. Finding a flock older than 10 years is hard.

I think if it was me and I really wanted vigorous SGs and was willing to hatch like crazy and cull hard, I'd find out how to use Red Dorkings as an outcross altho there may be a better variety to use. YHF did it with his whites using SGs. He got good results but he had to cull a lot of birds.

The other option is try to isolate the gene causing the issues. Both options are going to be time consuming.

Jennifer

The bolded part is the key to success in breeding, regardless of breed, line, anything. That's what separates a good breeder from a "reproducer". That's why some people have good lines and years of success, and others don't.

 

[pigsflyacres]

The bolded part is the key to success in breeding, regardless of breed, line, anything. That's what separates a good breeder from a "reproducer". That's why some people have good lines and years of success, and others don't.

Yes, I didn't understand this when I tried to breed Dorkings before. I didn't understand the infrastructure necessary or the number of chicks I needed to hatch, or just how hard I needed to cull. I also didn't have an eye for what to cull for or how to do complementary breedings. I'm in a better place for some of those things now. Maybe you have to try and fail to understand? Or learn it young.

Now I'm trying to get my head around just how my breeding system is going to work. I've kind of resigned myself to wait and see, but I don't like it.

The internet should make it easier to disseminate information and have coordinated efforts in poultry breed improvement. Some breeds are seeing the pros of the net others not.

 

[BGMatt]

Yes, I didn't understand this when I tried to breed Dorkings before. I didn't understand the infrastructure necessary or the number of chicks I needed to hatch, or just how hard I needed to cull. I also didn't have an eye for what to cull for or how to do complementary breedings. I'm in a better place for some of those things now. Maybe you have to try and fail to understand? Or learn it young.

Now I'm trying to get my head around just how my breeding system is going to work. I've kind of resigned myself to wait and see, but I don't like it.

The internet should make it easier to disseminate information and have coordinated efforts in poultry breed improvement. Some breeds are seeing the pros of the net others not.

The problem is as much misinformation as information, and a lot of the blind leading the blind. Too many "internet experts" with a pretty website and a flashy story. Then as mentioned, many of the most knowledgable breeders and poultrymen in the country are not on-line at all. Lucky there's a few like Walt and NYREDS and the like that do share their wisdom with newcomers.

Experience is the best teacher, and the more you learn the more successful you'll be. There are a million different thoughts on how to breed, and what works for one doesn't work for everyone. The results are what matters in the end.