Heritage Large Fowl - Phase II

[Baybrio]

So, Baybrio, in a nutshell, this thread is about APA/ABA poultry. One of the great advantages to this thread on BYC is that people can come here and get some fairly substantiated and defensible information; so that they don't fall into the trap of the newest fad that leads to nowhere and does nothing to advance poultry or the owners knowledge thereof. In short, if we laugh, it is so that we do not cry.

If folks were more concerned with the "Orpington-ness" of their birds rather than their "Buff-ness" hatcheries would have to step up and produce something worth owning...

Yellow House Farm,
Although I only quoted a few of your words, to me, your entire post is about the best description of the value of BYC, the APA/ABA and standard bred poultry that I have ever read. Thank you.

The other benefit I would attribute specifically to this thread is that it goes beyond the Standard of Perfection, you all talk about production attributes and why the APA standards lead to or should lead to better production.

"In short, if we laugh, it is so that we do not cry." OK, I'm starting to get it. Again, I apologize. I was not disparaging anyone's knowledge or experience, just the edge I thought I was reading in some comments.

 

[Yellow House Farm]

Yellow House Farm,
Although I only quoted a few of your words, to me, your entire post is about the best description of the value of BYC, the APA/ABA and standard bred poultry that I have ever read. Thank you.

The other benefit I would attribute specifically to this thread is that it goes beyond the Standard of Perfection, you all talk about production attributes and why the APA standards lead to or should lead to better production.

"In short, if we laugh, it is so that we do not cry." OK, I'm starting to get it. Again, I apologize. I was not disparaging anyone's knowledge or experience, just the edge I thought I was reading in some comments.

Well, you're welcome, and welcome to the group. You'll notice that we're a fairly wide ranging crew of left to right, north to south, etc... We certainly all have our personalities, but our commitment is to the discovery and diffusing of information related to standard-bred, aka. heritage, poultry.

Best to you

 

[pigsflyacres]

So, Baybrio, in a nutshell, this thread is about APA/ABA poultry. In this culture, breed is defined by shape as put forth by the Standard of Perfection. Although we do recognize that there are some bona fide breeds not yet recognized by the APA/ABA for mere reasons that they have not been popularized sufficiently here and have yet to go through the necessary process for APA/ABA recognition, we also recognize that, along side the emergent culture of neo-chicken-philes, there is also a culture of introducing the "next best thing" that very frequently is naught but a scam. An easy half or more of the newly imported fads (which incidently are only popular among non-APA/ABA folks because you couldn't get one of us to fall for that bologna to save your life) are nothing more than early stage color projects, easily recreated here in one or two season with a little genetic knowledge: the silly "Orpingtons " and "Brahmas" for example. Others are regional landraces brought in from Europe that are more or less the "Barnyard Bantams" of my youth: Swedish Flower Hens, Icelandics, etc... one look at them shows them to be unrefined and genetically unstable--what we would consider certainly unworthy of being called a breed. Whatever these "Legacy" birds are, they're not a breed and they're certainly not old. Either they're the backyard project of a neophyte who's overly enthusiastic about their project, and posting them because of sheer, if under-informed, excitement, OR, in the event that they're trying to sell them and make money off of them, they're a scam, and folks should know that they're being duped.

One of the great advantages to this thread on BYC is that people can come here and get some fairly substantiated and defensible information; so that they don't fall into the trap of the newest fad that leads to nowhere and does nothing to advance poultry or the owners knowledge thereof. In short, if we laugh, it is so that we do not cry.

Edited to add: One of the several advantages to the Standard is that it protects buyers. Using the Standard, a buyer can guage quality of stock and know whether or not he/she is receiving stock of quality or if their receiving junk. Incidentally, the entire hatchery industry is based on selling birds of a certain color as opposed to a certain shape. As a result, very little effort needs to be put into selecting for breed-typical qualities, because they've convinced an uninformed populace that it is "color" that makes the breed. Consequently, they make money with birds of ridiculously poor quality. If folks were more concerned with the "Orpington-ness" of their birds rather than their "Buff-ness" hatcheries would have to step up and produce something worth owning, but because people are content to buy a cheap bird of low breeding with an approximated pattern to run around their garden, the result is a boom of birds of pessimal quality all around the country that do absolutely nothing to preserve or promote real specimens of the breed.

I'm going to quote the whole thing because I'm too tired this morning to do otherwise!

So there is a 'craze' going on. Its really obvious. It kind of reminds me of the Dutch Tulip Mania. But not tulips, chickens. At least you can eat chickens and eggs! Some of the craze is going on in a quest to provide colored eggs. The darkest, the bluest, the greenest with out concern for the bird they come from. Places like GFF do a great job in creating a hysteria, a need for an import and then move on. Some will band together and work on a breed to attempt to get them recognized. That is what is happening with Creme Legbars. They do have a UK standard. There is a working group developing a standard. I have no idea if they will be successful or not. I don't think the genetics imported were than great. As a breed it probably will last simply because it lays a blue egg and has a crest. Those two things are appealing to the masses. The masses should not be discounted. You want some of them to become committed breeders. Converting them is a careful process. They don't come from a chicken 'culture', have no idea why the APA/ABA could be important. Some of them feel strongly about conservation without understanding the need for a standard. So you have to lure them in. If they can be lured to a large poultry show, that gives them a glimpse of the bigger world. I think the future of DP breeds lies in outreach to hobby farmers and niche farmers. They ones that are marketing their products unique qualities. To do a demo to a group interested in adding chickens to their mix where you take prime specimens and talk about what they bring to the small farmer will get more of these birds preserved than trying to convince the newly chicken crazed that the APA has value. Because the breeds will be used as intended, so they will be bred with use in mind, not color. This is really hard, but in my area many farmers are showing up at the markets with heritage meats. From heritage strains/breeds of pork, beef, lamb, goat. But not chicken. If they are bringing chicken, its the Freedom Ranger. The PNW is kind of a hot bed of greenness and sustainability. But not for chickens. Other than keeping them. But we have a strong culinary market. Doing a taste test to some of the chefs is a great way to generate interest.

This thread has developed a presence all its own. Instead of being a thread, its more like a forum. It has a certain personality. I think we need to be aware of that. We want people to drop in and comeback....stay a while and learn.

Anyway just random thoughts this morning. I just think that trying to convert urban chicken keepers to the APA is a lost cause. I think more luck would be had for preservation of some of these breeds by 'selling' them to the new generation of niche farmer. But you have to have good specimens to do that and finding sources needs to be easy. Which is why the net is so important. Breeders with strong flocks do need to have an internet presence. You don't have to be preaching on the forums, but I think at the very least a web site is essential. Clubs need to be stronger. Like it or not, the internet is our reality. Its not going away. It needs to be used. My frustration with Dorkings is a good example. No active breed club. Web site is essentially unmaintained. A push for importation with all of its pros and cons. Breeders with no web presence. Conflicting information. If I was a hobby farmer looking for a fine meat with eggs breed, I would pass this breed by. Dorking and Sussex both have attributes that could be very appealing to a niche farmer. But how would they know. Instead some of them are being lured to the 'heritage french' breeds. I think we need to go back to breeding for the farmer. Its what showing used to be about. I think we just need to go about it differently now.

Jennifer

 

[hellbender]

I'm going to quote the whole thing because I'm too tired this morning to do otherwise!

So there is a 'craze' going on. Its really obvious. It kind of reminds me of the Dutch Tulip Mania. But not tulips, chickens. At least you can eat chickens and eggs! Some of the craze is going on in a quest to provide colored eggs. The darkest, the bluest, the greenest with out concern for the bird they come from. Places like GFF do a great job in creating a hysteria, a need for an import and then move on. Some will band together and work on a breed to attempt to get them recognized. That is what is happening with Creme Legbars. They do have a UK standard. There is a working group developing a standard. I have no idea if they will be successful or not. I don't think the genetics imported were than great. As a breed it probably will last simply because it lays a blue egg and has a crest. Those two things are appealing to the masses. The masses should not be discounted. You want some of them to become committed breeders. Converting them is a careful process. They don't come from a chicken 'culture', have no idea why the APA/ABA could be important. Some of them feel strongly about conservation without understanding the need for a standard. So you have to lure them in. If they can be lured to a large poultry show, that gives them a glimpse of the bigger world. I think the future of DP breeds lies in outreach to hobby farmers and niche farmers. They ones that are marketing their products unique qualities. To do a demo to a group interested in adding chickens to their mix where you take prime specimens and talk about what they bring to the small farmer will get more of these birds preserved than trying to convince the newly chicken crazed that the APA has value. Because the breeds will be used as intended, so they will be bred with use in mind, not color. This is really hard, but in my area many farmers are showing up at the markets with heritage meats. From heritage strains/breeds of pork, beef, lamb, goat. But not chicken. If they are bringing chicken, its the Freedom Ranger. The PNW is kind of a hot bed of greenness and sustainability. But not for chickens. Other than keeping them. But we have a strong culinary market. Doing a taste test to some of the chefs is a great way to generate interest.

This thread has developed a presence all its own. Instead of being a thread, its more like a forum. It has a certain personality. I think we need to be aware of that. We want people to drop in and comeback....stay a while and learn.

Anyway just random thoughts this morning. I just think that trying to convert urban chicken keepers to the APA is a lost cause. I think more luck would be had for preservation of some of these breeds by 'selling' them to the new generation of niche farmer. But you have to have good specimens to do that and finding sources needs to be easy. Which is why the net is so important. Breeders with strong flocks do need to have an internet presence. You don't have to be preaching on the forums, but I think at the very least a web site is essential. Clubs need to be stronger. Like it or not, the internet is our reality. Its not going away. It needs to be used. My frustration with Dorkings is a good example. No active breed club. Web site is essentially unmaintained. A push for importation with all of its pros and cons. Breeders with no web presence. Conflicting information. If I was a hobby farmer looking for a fine meat with eggs breed, I would pass this breed by. Dorking and Sussex both have attributes that could be very appealing to a niche farmer. But how would they know. Instead some of them are being lured to the 'heritage french' breeds. I think we need to go back to breeding for the farmer. Its what showing used to be about. I think we just need to go about it differently now.

Jennifer

Oh, I have learned so much! While I did quote the whole thing and then some, this will be the extent of my reply and I won't be goaded into responding further but there are some 'breeders' who might look at their own shadows to find faults.

That is all for me on this subject...anymore would get me slammed for heresy.

In retrospect, I just might be tempted to post about what I consider to be at least a bit of hypocrisy on part of one breeder but I won't do it here...

Perhaps today or the next couple of days, Ill make my heretical post here :

https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/845018/breeding-for-production-eggs-and-or-meat/360

 

[Fentress]

I think you may see a new class of breeders emerge that will take the heritage breeds in a new direction, staying within the parameters of the SOP, but focused on home consumption. Maybe, I say this, because that is what I plan to do. There must be others out there, like me? And this would be good for the breed even if they don't win any shows. I'm speculating because I don't know, we will just have to wait and see how they perform. I do not see a commercial niche for heritage poultry, unless they taste a whole lot better than what I think they will and people are willing to pay a lot of money for that and I mean a lot of money. The small farmers that are raising hybrids on pasture and marketing a "natural" product are not making much money. These are birds with quick grow outs, alot quicker than heritage birds.

 

[3riverschick]

Hi,
I invited a young dairy farmer from SE PA over to our thread. He is wanting to add poultry to his set up.
Hopefully he will jump on in and tell us more.
Best,
Karen

 

[hellbender]

I think you may see a new class of breeders emerge that will take the heritage breeds in a new direction, staying within the parameters of the SOP, but focused on home consumption. Maybe, I say this, because that is what I plan to do. There must be others out there, like me? And this would be good for the breed even if they don't win any shows. I'm speculating because I don't know, we will just have to wait and see how they perform. I do not see a commercial niche for heritage poultry, unless they taste a whole lot better than what I think they will and people are willing to pay a lot of money for that and I mean a lot of money. The small farmers that are raising hybrids on pasture and marketing a "natural" product are not making much money. These are birds with quick grow outs, alot quicker than heritage birds.

Don't be misled. There are a few out there breeding 'heritage birds' who are making a killing on the "Heritage Brand" and other sales points while in practice, they are doing business like all the other commercial hatcheries.

 

[mithious]

Don't be misled. There are a few out there breeding 'heritage birds' who are making a killing on the "Heritage Brand" and other sales points while in practice, they are doing business like all the other commercial hatcheries.

That's a shame!!!!

 

[fowlman01]

That's a shame!!!!

It is a shame, but chickens are big right now and the hucksters are out full force.

Walt

 

[fowlman01]

As an example https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/876809/the-apas-flock-certification-program#post_13329900

This individual is charging $1200.00 to certify a flock as heritage and then $300.00 per year to keep the "certification" current. He has also been implying that the APA is working with him on this program. He has also implied that I am OK with his certifications........I'm not! This individual has been suspended by the ABA and is on the verge of that with the APA.
So buyer beware!!! Chickens are the new Brooklyn bridge.

Walt