Hey Q9!!! Calling Q9!.....

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If you awoke one night and saw someone seeking into your bedroom with a loaded gun, who would likely fire the first shot? Would you wait until he fired before attempting to defend yourself and your family? That would be utter foolishness.

He who fires the first shot is not always the aggressor.

ETA: Sorry redhen. *shamed thread hijacker face*

So Fort Sumter was getting ready to invade Charleston? I've been there quite a few times, would have been a long swim for the yankees to sneek into anybody's bedroom.
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Steve

There's another thing - Charleston was one of the Confederacy's most important seaports. The guns it already had would allow it to effectively blockade Charleston, and the guns the ships were carrying would have easily allowed a bombardment of Charleston itself. I've been to Charleston many times, and it's NOT a long flight for a cannonball.

Also, TM, that analogy was brilliant. I didn't know you were interested in this kind of stuff.
 
Q, they didn't really have legitimacy as a nation anyway. They were part of the United States. What do you think Obama would do if some of the Southern states decided they wanted to secede and make their own nation. He would do the same thing as Lincoln and every other POTUS since then. The South may have had what they felt were legitimate reasons for wanting to get out. Wasn't happening then and would never happen now. It's history as they say.
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That being said. I do like the Dukes of Hazards car.
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I guess the United States also doesn't have legitimacy as a nation, seeing as how a colony declaring independence was completely, utterly, indisputably illegal then.
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Funny thing - the South declaring independence was actually less of a massive step than the 13 colonies doing the same. For all practical purposes, it was the exact same thing that the original "revolutionaries" did. They seceded from the British Empire, the Confederate States of America seceded from the United States.

10th Amendment to the United States' Constitution - All powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, and to the people.

The ratification documents of New York, Virginia, and Rhode Island all explicitly reserved the right to secede.

Thomas Jefferson, John Q. Adams, and (brace yourself) Abraham Lincoln all explicitly acknowledged the right of secession. Prepare yourself for the quotes.

"Any people anywhere, being inclined and having the power, have the right to rise up and shake off the existing government, and form a new one that suits them better. This is a most valuable, most sacred right-a right which we hope and believe is to liberate the world. Nor is this right confined to cases in which the whole people of an existing government may choose to excercise it. Any portion of such people, that can, may revolutionize, and make their own of so much of the territory as they inhabit." - Abraham Lincoln, Jan. 12, 1848.

"We should be determined... to sever ourselves from the union we so much value rather than give up the rights of self-government... in which alone we see liberty, safety, and happiness." - Thomas Jefferson.

"The indissoluble link of union between the people of the several states of this confederated nation is, after all, not in the RIGHT but in the HEART. If the day should ever come (may Heaven avert it!) when the affections of the people of these States shall be alienated from each other; when the fraternal spirit shall give way to cold indifference, or collision of interests shall fester into hatred, the bands of political associations will not long hold together parties no longer attracted by the magnetism of conciliated interests and kindly sympathies; and far better will it be for the people of the disunited states to part in friendship from each other, than to be held together by constraint." - John Quincy Adams.

Oh, and the famous French guy.

The Union "was formed by the voluntary agreement of the states; and these, in uniting together, have not forfeited their nationality, nor have they been reduced to the condition of one and the same people. If one of the states chose to withdraw its name from the contract, it would be difficult to disprove its right to do so." - Alexis de Tocqueville, author of the book Democracy in America, written not to long after the US' founding.

If I went into all the other quotes that endorsed states' rights but not explicitly secession, this post would be way too long.
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I guess the United States also doesn't have legitimacy as a nation, seeing as how a colony declaring independence was completely, utterly, indisputably illegal then.
wink.png
Funny thing - the South declaring independence was actually less of a massive step than the 13 colonies doing the same. For all practical purposes, it was the exact same thing that the original "revolutionaries" did. They seceded from the British Empire, the Confederate States of America seceded from the United States.

10th Amendment to the United States' Constitution - All powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, and to the people.

The ratification documents of New York, Virginia, and Rhode Island all explicitly reserved the right to secede.

Thomas Jefferson, John Q. Adams, and (brace yourself) Abraham Lincoln all explicitly acknowledged the right of secession. Prepare yourself for the quotes.

"Any people anywhere, being inclined and having the power, have the right to rise up and shake off the existing government, and form a new one that suits them better. This is a most valuable, most sacred right-a right which we hope and believe is to liberate the world. Nor is this right confined to cases in which the whole people of an existing government may choose to excercise it. Any portion of such people, that can, may revolutionize, and make their own of so much of the territory as they inhabit." - Abraham Lincoln, Jan. 12, 1848.

"We should be determined... to sever ourselves from the union we so much value rather than give up the rights of self-government... in which alone we see liberty, safety, and happiness." - Thomas Jefferson.

"The indissoluble link of union between the people of the several states of this confederated nation is, after all, not in the RIGHT but in the HEART. If the day should ever come (may Heaven avert it!) when the affections of the people of these States shall be alienated from each other; when the fraternal spirit shall give way to cold indifference, or collision of interests shall fester into hatred, the bands of political associations will not long hold together parties no longer attracted by the magnetism of conciliated interests and kindly sympathies; and far better will it be for the people of the disunited states to part in friendship from each other, than to be held together by constraint." - John Quincy Adams.

Oh, and the famous French guy.

The Union "was formed by the voluntary agreement of the states; and these, in uniting together, have not forfeited their nationality, nor have they been reduced to the condition of one and the same people. If one of the states chose to withdraw its name from the contract, it would be difficult to disprove its right to do so." - Alexis de Tocqueville, author of the book Democracy in America, written not to long after the US' founding.

If I went into all the other quotes that endorsed states' rights but not explicitly secession, this post would be way too long.
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Epic.
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Quote:
I guess the United States also doesn't have legitimacy as a nation, seeing as how a colony declaring independence was completely, utterly, indisputably illegal then.
wink.png
Funny thing - the South declaring independence was actually less of a massive step than the 13 colonies doing the same. For all practical purposes, it was the exact same thing that the original "revolutionaries" did. They seceded from the British Empire, the Confederate States of America seceded from the United States.

10th Amendment to the United States' Constitution - All powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, and to the people.

The ratification documents of New York, Virginia, and Rhode Island all explicitly reserved the right to secede.

Thomas Jefferson, John Q. Adams, and (brace yourself) Abraham Lincoln all explicitly acknowledged the right of secession. Prepare yourself for the quotes.

"Any people anywhere, being inclined and having the power, have the right to rise up and shake off the existing government, and form a new one that suits them better. This is a most valuable, most sacred right-a right which we hope and believe is to liberate the world. Nor is this right confined to cases in which the whole people of an existing government may choose to excercise it. Any portion of such people, that can, may revolutionize, and make their own of so much of the territory as they inhabit." - Abraham Lincoln, Jan. 12, 1848.

"We should be determined... to sever ourselves from the union we so much value rather than give up the rights of self-government... in which alone we see liberty, safety, and happiness." - Thomas Jefferson.

"The indissoluble link of union between the people of the several states of this confederated nation is, after all, not in the RIGHT but in the HEART. If the day should ever come (may Heaven avert it!) when the affections of the people of these States shall be alienated from each other; when the fraternal spirit shall give way to cold indifference, or collision of interests shall fester into hatred, the bands of political associations will not long hold together parties no longer attracted by the magnetism of conciliated interests and kindly sympathies; and far better will it be for the people of the disunited states to part in friendship from each other, than to be held together by constraint." - John Quincy Adams.

Oh, and the famous French guy.

The Union "was formed by the voluntary agreement of the states; and these, in uniting together, have not forfeited their nationality, nor have they been reduced to the condition of one and the same people. If one of the states chose to withdraw its name from the contract, it would be difficult to disprove its right to do so." - Alexis de Tocqueville, author of the book Democracy in America, written not to long after the US' founding.

If I went into all the other quotes that endorsed states' rights but not explicitly secession, this post would be way too long.
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Epic.
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I look this stuff up to kill time. I'm not sure if that's great, or if I have serious issues.
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Why don't you ask those Yankees at Chancellorsville whether the Confederacy was a legitimate nation or not?
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ETA - yes, I am fully aware that a battle does not establish a nation as legitimate or not. It just felt REALLY good to rub Chancellorsville in.

Do note that, while might does not make right, Confederate armies creamed larger, better-trained, better-fed, and better-equipped Union armies on a regular basis. Grant only won by throwing waves of soldiers at the Confederates, earning him the nickname "The Butcher" in reference to his lack of regard for his soldiers' lives. Sherman only made it through the South in one piece because Jeff Davis meddled and replaced Johnston with Hood, who headed into Tennessee, removing the only organized resistance to Sherman.
 
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