Hey Q9!!! Calling Q9!.....

[Dunkopf]

Quote:
Sure.
Negative - the loss of almost universal clear-cut morality, an increase in both trust of and dependence on the Federal government, loss of the sense of being tied to the land, in fact, generally a deterioration in our traditions as well, states' rights are no longer truly respected (see the results of the poll posted earlier - only 26% still believe in secession?!), and increasing influence of Northern and Left-Coast culture. The South is slowly but surely losing its identity as a distinct culture. Small farms vanishing, factory farms taking over. Demonization of the South generally in schools.

Positive - that's hard to think of. Obviously, the abolition of slavery, but aside from that... An increase in industry, I guess, as a direct result of the collapse of the plantation system and less dependence on a few crops. Aside from those, it's difficult to think of anything good that was a direct result of Union victory.


Hate to say it Q, but it sounds like you're living in a vacuum.

Do you really think that the South would have continued as it was in 1861? Do you think women and minorities would have continued to think they were inferior to white men? That small farms wouldn't eventually go away. Heck the South had the biggest farms in the country. They called them plantations. The only way they could exist was with free labor. Do you really think that the churches would take care of all the people that couldn't find work or were incapable of working?

Everyone in the world is losing their identity as a distinct culture. It's called evolution.

I would be willing to bet that the percentage of people that are dirt poor is a lot lower than it was before the war. Not because of the war, but because of evolution and advances in society. Of course we've been going backwards for the last 30 years or so. By the time you grow up you'll either be a plantation owner yourself or a paid corporate slave. You're right we are screwed.

 

[KristyHall]

Quote:

Hate to say it Q, but it sounds like you're living in a vacuum.

Do you really think that the South would have continued as it was in 1861? Do you think women and minorities would have continued to think they were inferior to white men? That small farms wouldn't eventually go away. Heck the South had the biggest farms in the country. They called them plantations. The only way they could exist was with free labor. Do you really think that the churches would take care of all the people that couldn't find work or were incapable of working?

Everyone in the world is losing their identity as a distinct culture. It's called evolution.

I would be willing to bet that the percentage of people that are dirt poor is a lot lower than it was before the war. Not because of the war, but because of evolution and advances in society. Of course we've been going backwards for the last 30 years or so. By the time you grow up you'll either be a plantation owner yourself or a paid corporate slave. You're right we are screwed.

 

[chickened]

My wife and I vacationed in Florida near Daytona beach. We met some locals and the subject of the bikers rally came up and I was surprised to learn that the white folk have their rally one week and the black folk have theirs the following week. That is something that has not changed since the civil war in consideration of the social aspects. (I know they did not have biker rallies back then).

 

[Steve_of_sandspoultry]

Quote:
Hate to say it Q, but it sounds like you're living in a vacuum.

Do you really think that the South would have continued as it was in 1861? Do you think women and minorities would have continued to think they were inferior to white men? That small farms wouldn't eventually go away. Heck the South had the biggest farms in the country. They called them plantations. The only way they could exist was with free labor. Do you really think that the churches would take care of all the people that couldn't find work or were incapable of working?

Everyone in the world is losing their identity as a distinct culture. It's called evolution.

I would be willing to bet that the percentage of people that are dirt poor is a lot lower than it was before the war. Not because of the war, but because of evolution and advances in society. Of course we've been going backwards for the last 30 years or so. By the time you grow up you'll either be a plantation owner yourself or a paid corporate slave. You're right we are screwed.

X2

 

[Q9]

Screw all this insanity. I cannot believe I've allowed myself to get distracted from the issue at hand by all these red herrings.

Here's the facts put as simply as possible: The South seceded for some reason or another. Abraham Lincoln declared war to prevent the South from seceding. The South fought back to keep their independence. Thus, the war was entirely about whether a state could secede or not. Is that elementary enough for all of you? I hope so - if not, that's really pathetic. The Constitution grants no power to the Federal government to coerce a seceding state back into the Union. The Constitution makes it clear that "All powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people." It does not prohibit secession. The original colonies seceded from the British Empire. The Constitution grants the president no power to declare war, vesting it instead in Congress. Therefore, Lincoln's war was illegal on every point, whereas the secession of the South was legal on every point, whatever the motivations behind them.

Lincoln's war killed more Americans than any other war. Lincoln's (and the Union government's) actions during the war were terrifyingly tyrranical - violation of free speech, violation of the writ of habeas corpus, violation of the freedom of the press, martial law, arrest of an entire state legislature by the US Army, arrest of a federal judge by the US Army, arrest and deportation of an opposition Congressman, and so on and so forth.

If anyone denies that these actions were completely illegal and morally wrong, that person is one of the ones who are killing this country.

How is this relevant? Isn't getting so angry about this "living in the past?" NO. This was a terrible precedent that modern politicians are all too happy to point to. Look what we have now! Violations of free speech? PATRIOT Act. Writ of habeas corpus? Guantanamo (sp?) Bay and the like - heck, even the bin Laden assassination. Unilateral declaration of war? Every freaking war since Korea. Violations of the Constitution too numerous to count. Increasing use of paramilitary SWAT teams to serve regular search warrants - militarization of police, anyone? Sorry, Steve, but this is all extremely relevant. Invariably, when a person is cornered on an issue like one of these, they invoke Lincoln's precedent.

Q9, over and out.

 

[WickedNerd]

Quote:
*Sigh* I really wanted to stay out of this, and I'm probably going to regret throwing my own two cents in, but that little epitaph just irritates me enough that I have to say something.

One, this thread is a debate on history, and the one of the best ways to exchange ideas and facts is to talk about them. Shutting down communication and calling what everyone else is "insanity" doesn't do anything for anyone's expanding minds. It generally makes people annoyed and defensive. When people get defensive, they stop listening.

Two, history is a multifaceted and convoluted collection of events. One event doesn't necessarily cause something to happen or not to happen. It is impossible to predict what would or wouldn't have happened if the Civil War had never been fought. The Confederacy may have thrived as an independent country. It may have failed and been reabsorbed into the Union all on its own. Someone may have accidentally created the atom bomb way before WWII and blew us all up. Now I know that last one is about as likely as aliens coming down during this conflict and implanting commands in Lincoln's brain, but it's within the realm of possibilities. The thing is we don't know what would have happened. One slight change of wording when addressing someone could have altered events drastically.

The reason I mention the above is that declaring someone to be in favor of "violation of free speech, violation of the writ of habeas corpus, violation of the freedom of the press, martial law, arrest of an entire state legislature by the US Army, arrest of a federal judge by the US Army, arrest and deportation of an opposition Congressman, and so on and so forth," simply because they would have sided with the Union at the time of the war is like calling someone a communist because they lived in the Soviet Union or calling someone a witch because they're wearing a pentagram on their shirt. People support or don't support things for various reasons, and only they can know their own minds. The morality of their actions can't be simply labeled. They may be ignorant of the efforts that are going on as they try to support what they believe is right, and yes ignorance of what's going on isn't an excuse for anything, but if we don't know about something, there's no way we can adjust our understanding of it. The same is true in this debate.

You're a smart guy, Q9. You're very intelligent and have a strong understanding of history. You're still young though and you don't know everything. Even the older people on these boards, don't know everything. My suggestion is to keep an open mind and listen to what everyone is saying, even if you don't agree. You never know, science may show that aliens did in fact plant commands in Lincoln's brain that helped us to get where we are today.

 

[KristyHall]

Quote:
*Sigh* I really wanted to stay out of this, and I'm probably going to regret throwing my own two cents in, but that little epitaph just irritates me enough that I have to say something.

One, this thread is a debate on history, and the one of the best ways to exchange ideas and facts is to talk about them. Shutting down communication and calling what everyone else is "insanity" doesn't do anything for anyone's expanding minds. It generally makes people annoyed and defensive. When people get defensive, they stop listening.

Two, history is a multifaceted and convoluted collection of events. One event doesn't necessarily cause something to happen or not to happen. It is impossible to predict what would or wouldn't have happened if the Civil War had never been fought. The Confederacy may have thrived as an independent country. It may have failed and been reabsorbed into the Union all on its own. Someone may have accidentally created the atom bomb way before WWII and blew us all up. Now I know that last one is about as likely as aliens coming down during this conflict and implanting commands in Lincoln's brain, but it's within the realm of possibilities. The thing is we don't know what would have happened. One slight change of wording when addressing someone could have altered events drastically.

The reason I mention the above is that declaring someone to be in favor of "violation of free speech, violation of the writ of habeas corpus, violation of the freedom of the press, martial law, arrest of an entire state legislature by the US Army, arrest of a federal judge by the US Army, arrest and deportation of an opposition Congressman, and so on and so forth," simply because they would have sided with the Union at the time of the war is like calling someone a communist because they lived in the Soviet Union or calling someone a witch because they're wearing a pentagram on their shirt. People support or don't support things for various reasons, and only they can know their own minds. The morality of their actions can't be simply labeled. They may be ignorant of the efforts that are going on as they try to support what they believe is right, and yes ignorance of what's going on isn't an excuse for anything, but if we don't know about something, there's no way we can adjust our understanding of it. The same is true in this debate.

You're a smart guy, Q9. You're very intelligent and have a strong understanding of history. You're still young though and you don't know everything. Even the older people on these boards, don't know everything. My suggestion is to keep an open mind and listen to what everyone is saying, even if you don't agree. You never know, science may show that aliens did in fact plant commands in Lincoln's brain that helped us to get where we are today.

that is very well said

 

[AlexMalix]

A well made argument, Wicked

 

[Dunkopf]

Quote:
They don't really say over and out. It's over when you are passing the communication to the party you are talking to. Out is when the transmission is concluded. I know you like to be concise.

 

[aprophet]

Quote:
*Cough*Warofnorthernaggression*cough*

Yes. That era specifically is what interests me the most, though the colonial era up to the War interests me. I consider it the single most important chapter of American history, as it re-shaped the very nature of our government.

I always heard it was the war of southern submission.

Reshaped the govt and a lot of peoples lives.

thats funny there I don,t care who you are HAHAHAHAHA