Homemade Worming Treatment! (Maybe?)

[aart]

Well said^^^ @Bio cryo guy !

Why are you getting so much criticism? Because a lot of us on here in the scientific community (and those who are not) get exhausted trying to help keep people properly informed.

Exactly!!
We're not trying to be 'mean'.

 

[Morrigan]

Why are you getting so much criticism? Because a lot of us on here in the scientific community (and those who are not) get exhausted trying to help keep people properly informed

Keeping people properly informed is a laudable goal. That doesn't explain to me the dog-pile on of bashing that goes on whenever someone mentions using using pumpkin seeds. Why is it so difficult to believe that that there is substance in nature that can kill a worm? There are substances in nature that can kill an adult human.

I already posted 2 recent scientific studies that concluded pumpkins seeds do have anti-worming properties. Here are two more:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2314853517303918. This one is from 2018 and concluded:

"In conclusion, the tested plant extracts showed anthelmintic activity against Ascaridia galli adult worms. The pumpkin seeds ethanolic extract was superior to pomegranate peel aqueous extract. Future studies are required to determine the optimal dose and administration route to maximize their effectiveness especially for pumpkin seeds as anthelmintic therapeutic."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5037735/ This one is from 2016 (using mice) and concludes:

"Pumpkin seed extracts may be used to control of Gastrointestinal (G.I.) nematode infections. This relatively inexpensive alternative to the currently available chemotherapeutic should be considered as a novel drug candidate in the nearest future."

It is true that more studies are needed. But, The Chicken Whisperer's views notwithstanding, I don't think it is fair to characterize pumpkin seeds as some kind of hippy-dippy hogwash.

One of the studies I cited mentioned that their interest in pumpkin seeds was driven by the increasing resistance to commercial de-wormers that is developing. You want to talk about causing harm? Drug resistant worms are a serious problem, yet I rarely see this level of concern expressed when people post about how they are randomly dosing their chickens with various dewormers despite not knowing if their chickens actually have worms, or what kind.

 

[21hens-incharge]

Keeping people properly informed is a laudable goal. That doesn't explain to me the dog-pile on of bashing that goes on whenever someone mentions using using pumpkin seeds. Why is it so difficult to believe that that there is substance in nature that can kill a worm? There are substances in nature that can kill an adult human.

I already posted 2 recent scientific studies that concluded pumpkins seeds do have anti-worming properties. Here are two more:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2314853517303918. This one is from 2018 and concluded:

"In conclusion, the tested plant extracts showed anthelmintic activity against Ascaridia galli adult worms. The pumpkin seeds ethanolic extract was superior to pomegranate peel aqueous extract. Future studies are required to determine the optimal dose and administration route to maximize their effectiveness especially for pumpkin seeds as anthelmintic therapeutic."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5037735/ This one is from 2016 (using mice) and concludes:

"Pumpkin seed extracts may be used to control of Gastrointestinal (G.I.) nematode infections. This relatively inexpensive alternative to the currently available chemotherapeutic should be considered as a novel drug candidate in the nearest future."

It is true that more studies are needed. But, The Chicken Whisperer's views notwithstanding, I don't think it is fair to characterize pumpkin seeds as some kind of hippy-dippy hogwash.

One of the studies I cited mentioned that their interest in pumpkin seeds was driven by the increasing resistance to commercial de-wormers that is developing. You want to talk about causing harm? Drug resistant worms are a serious problem, yet I rarely see this level of concern expressed when people post about how they are randomly dosing their chickens with various dewormers despite not knowing if their chickens actually have worms, or what kind.

I did not see a "dog-pile" on of bashing.
I saw many times the flaws in a "study" with no controls in place.
No fecal float to confirm worms.
No fecal to be performed to prove the concoctions worked.

I saw it recommended and recommended it myself that fecals should be done.

I will never deny that there are things in nature that kill....both tiny/microscopic things and big things.

I do believe that what set things off in this thread is it is posted as a "scientific" study which it certainly is not.

 

[Folly's place]

To your point about parasites developing resistance to dewormers; any product, especially any product that only partially reduces the numbers of that parasite, will produce MORE resistance to that product, not less. The surviving worms are more resistant to the drugs offered, and they are the ones who reproduce, so increasing resistance in that population.
Pumpkin seeds are a yummy treat, but if fed all the time, will likely cease to have much of an effect on the resident roundworm population.
Mary

 

[Bio cryo guy]

Please don't tell me your takeaway from those studies is: taking pumpkin seeds and including them in your flock's diet might be effective...

I'll be honest, I haven't read any of the linked articles yet. I will say I've seen the word extract used more than once though...

@Morrigan , I agree on your end points. Huge topics there.

 

[aart]

I did not see a "dog-pile" on of bashing.

Neither did I, just some strong opposing opinions.

 

[Morrigan]

Pumpkin seeds are a yummy treat, but if fed all the time, will likely cease to have much of an effect on the resident roundworm population.

This I totally agree with. Natural doesn't mean that none of the usual rules apply. I'm a little less concerned with a one-off "experiment" with pumpkins seeds then I am with mis- and over-use of commercial wormers.

I did not see a "dog-pile" on of bashing.

I guess my mileage varies on this. I don't think it was any one person, and please, I wasn't trying to single you out, and I hope I didn't offend you, I find your posting by and large very helpful, and I agree with you that pre- and post- fecal float tests would have been helpful.

But, something about the overall tone of all the posts read together struck me as over-kill. I don't think the OP presented what she was doing as a scientific study, so it seemed that was a bit of a straw man people were setting up to knock down.

 

[Morrigan]

I'll be honest, I haven't read any of the linked articles yet. I will say I've seen the word extract used more than once though...

The study done in Turkey (which was one of the first 2 I cited to), actually used ground up pumpkin seeds, rather an an extract, which I though was interesting. The doses they gave seemed very small to me as well.

I think we are going to see more and more research done on this issue, and I'm interested in where it all leads.

 

[21hens-incharge]

This I totally agree with. Natural doesn't mean that none of the usual rules apply. I'm a little less concerned with a one-off "experiment" with pumpkins seeds then I am with mis- and over-use of commercial wormers.



I guess my mileage varies on this. I don't think it was any one person, and please, I wasn't trying to single you out, and I hope I didn't offend you, I find your posting by and large very helpful, and I agree with you that pre- and post- fecal float tests would have been helpful.

But, something about the overall tone of all the posts read together struck me as over-kill. I don't think the OP presented what she was doing as a scientific study, so it seemed that was a bit of a straw man people were setting up to knock down.

I am SUPER hard to offend.

The OP used the word "scientific" several times.

Perhaps I have seen a few to many threads where folks are losing birds while treating a KNOWN issue with an unproven item. It is sad when the animal suffers because the caretaker did not take the time to adequately educate themselves on best course of action.
Perhaps because of threads like those folks can come across harsher than intended while trying to stress the importance of using proper wormers....and knowing if worms is even the issue.

Literally their lives are the caregivers responsibility.
To me it seems irresponsible to not determine what the issue is and then give proven treatment.

 

[Morrigan]

I am SUPER hard to offend.

The OP used the word "scientific" several times.

That's a really good thing! One of the things I enjoy about his forum is the amount of open discussions that goes on without too many feathers getting ruffled.

My reading of the OP was that "scientific" was being used tongue in cheek. They did say straight away the following:

Is this a scientific study where all the variables are controlled, NO not even close.

I think my reaction to this would have been different had the OP been dealing with birds that were visible ill and suffering. When you have an ill chicken, I think we agree that getting the best information available and pursuing the best treatment options is the gold standard.