Human anti-viral meds for Mareks -- has anyone else tried this?

[rebrascora]

Your description is exactly what my bird is displaying. You are right, excitement about food causes the "fits" too. When she is calm and unstimulated, she is reasonably coordinated.

My girl is also in need of bath and I have been putting it off because I will need to take her home for it and it's a car journey or a bumpy walk across rough terrain and back. She does her best to poop over the edge of the nest but only succeeds some of the time, so she is a bit soiled now.
Having already had to cull one pullet with this, I'm enough of a realist to know that it may only be a matter of time, but whilst she is still fighting it and holding her own/improving slightly, I have to give her a chance. When the sun is shining and I am able to put her outside, she seems to still be reasonably confident around the other hens too and they don't seem to particularly bother her, but then I think free ranging helps a lot to prevent bullying.

 

[seminolewind]

Quote:
I've had 3 necropsies so far and the first one was tested with the pcr method and was negative. The other 2 , I believe, had enough found that would cause death, and they did not send for Marek's. I do put "suspected Marek's" and order "test for Marek's". There were no lesions or Marek's tumors in any of the 3. The last one the pathologist said something like "Marek's symptoms are caused by tumors". If there are no Marek's tumors found on the organs or nerves, there's no death by Marek's. However, I personally think (along with Nambroth) , that exposure testing is not reliable.

I know that other ailments can cause paralysis. Like tumors or brain tumor. She sits there looking happy and normal, paralyzed and not eating. I need to take her out later and see if she needs a clean up, assessment, etc.

I do know one little bit of info that helps. Be ready to send a necropsy if you think you will. Have the Styrofoam box, the plastic bags, the order form, address, and cold packs before hand. And refridgerate the bird overnight. I know sometimes I need a little push to get things done. And having the packaging present helps me get it done.

 

[rebrascora]

Pleased to report my girl is definitely looking better tonight and was even standing in the nest with both feet down flat although it appeared that she was only weight bearing on one. Still that is definitely a "step" in the right direction. She also didn't have a "fit" when I put some mixed corn in for her supper but just pecked sensibly at it.

From what I have read on this forum of people's necropsy results, it seems that there is rarely a hard and fast diagnosis of Marek's. I don't know if that is because the disease wasn't specifically screened for.
I'm pretty confident that mine have it from the age and circumstances of the birds that have presented symptoms and the post mortem I did finding tumours and the fact that it is documented as a very common disease, makes it a high probability. I would be loath to spend money on a professional necropsy when so many I have read about don't seem to give a definitive result.

 

[Sonya9]

I've had 3 necropsies so far and the first one was tested with the pcr method and was negative. The other 2 , I believe, had enough found that would cause death, and they did not send for Marek's. I do put "suspected Marek's" and order "test for Marek's". There were no lesions or Marek's tumors in any of the 3. The last one the pathologist said something like "Marek's symptoms are caused by tumors". If there are no Marek's tumors found on the organs or nerves, there's no death by Marek's. However, I personally think (along with Nambroth) , that exposure testing is not reliable.

Yes, the necropsy I had done came back negative because there were no visible lesions or tumors too. I have since found out that the neural form typically does NOT show lesions/tumors during necropsy.

Here is a description of the classic Marek's "Visceral type" with tumors and the neural type. I did read somewhere that the neural form is more aggressive and is being seen a lot more frequently.


Quote:

Accurate testing is very specific, even with tumors/lesions it may not be Mareks, one can't be sure unless they can find the actual Marek's DNA. Feather testing can be used on live birds but there may not be enough of the virus to test positive.

For necropsy this article specifies isolating spleen cells, and apparently the facility has to have a lab and the knowledge to do it...

It is a good very technical article that goes into the specifics of how labs should test for it, here is an exerpt. I wish I had found this before I spent $125 on a necropsy and just "trusted" that UGA (the go to vet school here in Georgia) knew what they were doing!

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[rebrascora]

Looking at the above information I'm wondering if I have 2 different strains of the virus (unlucky!) or if the strain I have has overlapping symptoms. Mostly I have seen asymmetric paralysis. The pullet with tumours did decline quite rapidly but she also had paralysis and her tumours were in the muscular tissue not the organs. I suppose with the neural type it does say "frequently no gross lesions can be observed" rather than that they do not occur.

 

[Sonya9]

Looking at the above information I'm wondering if I have 2 different strains of the virus (unlucky!) or if the strain I have has overlapping symptoms. Mostly I have seen asymmetric paralysis. The pullet with tumours did decline quite rapidly but she also had paralysis and her tumours were in the muscular tissue not the organs. I suppose with the neural type it does say "frequently no gross lesions can be observed" rather than that they do not occur.

How is your girl doing? Is she continuing to stand on her own? I hope so.

Happy to say the young ee pullet continues to do very well. I was worried that she could relapse after a few days off the meds but she seems more active than ever before. She has plenty of energy to play/chase her best buddy a club footed favorelle pullet from the same breeder. This pullet never really "thrived" before, she also used to have a chronic cold (likely Mycoplasma) however she seems to be all over that now.

The older pullet who has been paralyzed for weeks well....she is getting movement in one leg and can sort of sit up on her own now, but she also frequently has "fits" in which she pulls her neck back. Seems like more fits recently than in the last week, even over food. Not sure what to make of it, are her nerves starting to heal which allows for more movement but also susceptible to more fits? Ugh. We are hanging in their but I just don't know if she will ever recover.

A local chicken friend told me today that she came across an article/video of someone in asia that kept a paralyzed marek's bird alive for nearly a year, somehow that isn't encouraging.

 

[rebrascora]

Hi

Good to hear that your girls are no worse and at least one is perhaps showing improvement.
Quote: .Have you stopped the anti viral meds or are you only supposed to use them short term?

Amazingly my girl laid another egg today.... that's her first 3 eggs this week despite being paralysed and in a brooder at the back of the hen house/stable where it really isn't very light.

I can't say that she has improved since my last report, but she is still standing on her own in the nest when I go to feed her. Unfortunately she is also still having the fits but I ddon't think they are quite as severe or frequent. I put her outside again yesterday and she stood for a few seconds but couldn't maintain her balance out on the grass.... too many distractions I think and the temptation to move, whereas in the nest she is contained and just stands and waits for me to put food next to her She has difficulty lying down without support as she does the Marek's splits, so I propped her against the wall and she was very enthusiastic about eating whatever grass was within reach and poking about in the gaps between the stones of the wall looking for bugs. I left her there for half an hour or so whilst I cleaned out the brooder/sick bay and I think she really enjoyed it.

I hear what you are saying about keeping a Marek chicken alive for nearly a year. I think it's the term "keeping it alive" that is the problem. I know that it takes extra time and effort with them (especially when they knock their water over and flood the brooder everyday.... Aaarghh!!) and they would not survive without that tlc but I am pretty sure that their quality of life at the moment is good enough to justify the work involved and I genuinely feel that my 2 Marek girls in the brooder are happy/content..... and one of them is even paying her way!
I am lucky in some respects that I have two with it so they have each other for company and get on pretty well now. I don't think it is "keeping them alive" just for the sake of it but because it is too soon to end it. I've been in that situation once already and she was much, much worse than these 2. Also, I've already seen her make one very dramatic recovery a couple of months back which gives me hope A year is a long time in chicken terms and no doubt some of my flock will fall prey to dogs/foxes/accidents or other illness in that time, so I'm really not sure this is so bad.

 

[Sonya9]

.Have you stopped the anti viral meds or are you only supposed to use them short term?

I think since you have seen your birds recover dramatically that gives you hope, to date I have not seen a severely paralyzed bird make a significant recovery so that makes me a bit more pessimistic, I have a hard time imagining it really happening, but hopefully that will change.

It can be used short or long term (1 to 5 days to stop emergence or low dosage for years).

Since the young ee got better and the progression stopped I took her off of it after 6-7 days as I didn't want to risk damaging her liver/kidneys, of course if her limp started to get worse or her attitude/energy level declined I would likely start back up

The other paralyzed bird is another story, since she is lame I can't really tell if the outbreak is staying in remission or if it starts to flair back up, she is on a once a day dose. I suspect chickens (mine at least) tolerate it well, as the paralyzed bird has to have weak organs due to all of the seizures, periods of no food/water and severe weight loss, so her kidneys/liver can't be in great shape yet the drug didn't kill her/shut them down which is a positive sign. Lord knows my dosing is NOT very accurate.

My goal in the future is to treat any bird that starts to show signs 2 times a day at the first signs of Marek's related limping the same way it is used in humans, to hit the virus hard as it emerges and try to stop it in it's tracks before the nerves are damaged severely. I will probably also use a low once a day dose for any bird that appears sick/injured and is undergoing a high amount of stress as that is when the Marek's outbreaks seem to occur here.

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[leedyfeathers]

I wander if Mareks responds to that herp

Yes, the necropsy I had done came back negative because there were no visible lesions or tumors too.  I have since found out that the neural form typically does NOT show lesions/tumors during necropsy.

Here is a description of the classic Marek's "Visceral type" with tumors and the neural type. I did read somewhere that the neural form is more aggressive and is being seen a lot more frequently.




Accurate testing is very specific, even with tumors/lesions it may not be Mareks, one can't be sure unless they can find the actual Marek's DNA. Feather testing can be used on live birds but there may not be enough of the virus to test positive.

For necropsy this article specifies isolating spleen cells, and apparently the facility has to have a lab and the knowledge to do it...

It is a good very technical article that goes into the specifics of how labs should test for it, here is an exerpt.  I wish I had found this before I spent $125 on a necropsy and just "trusted" that UGA (the go to vet school here in Georgia) knew what they were doing!

ive read that if a chick had been vaccinated and it got Mareks and dies there would be no sign of the tumors because of the vaccine.. more to confuse however there looks like hope.. if that works then possibly a human type medicine might work. now I think its the type of herpes though that may make the difference in end result. it would be nice to know if you can feed a chicken L-lysine.

Scientific names: 2,6-diaminohexanoic acid, alpha-epsilon-diaminocaproic acid

Efficacy-safety rating:

ÒÒ...Ethno or other evidence of efficacy.

Safety rating:
●...No safety concerns despite wide use.

See also Slideshow: Vaccination Safety: Your Questions Answered

What is Lysine?

Lysine is an amino acid found in the protein of foods such as beans, cheese, yogurt, meat, milk, brewer's yeast, wheat germ, and other animal proteins. Proteins derived from grains such as wheat and corn tend to be low in lysine content. The bioavailability of lysine is reduced with food preparation methods, such as heating foods in the presence of a reducing sugar (ie, fructose or glucose); heating foods in the presence of sucrose or yeast; and cooking in the absence of moisture at high temperatures. The average 70 kg human requires 800 to 3,000 mg of lysine daily.

What is it used for?Traditional/Ethnobotanical uses

Lysine is an essential amino acid in human nutrition because the body cannot produce it; therefore, it must be taken in either by diet or supplementation. Lysine was first isolated from casein (a milk phosphoprotein) in 1889. It was first introduced in the United States as lysine hydrochloride in 1955. There was an interest in fortifying bread with lysine to target populations with lysine-poor diets. However, the FDA refused to modify the standards of identity for white bread. Since 1970, lysine has been commonly added to animal feed.

General uses

Lysine has been studied for the prevention and treatment of herpes infections and cold sores. It also increases the intestinal absorption of calcium and eliminates its excretion by the kidney, suggesting that it might be helpful in osteoporosis. Lysine has been investigated for its effects on increasing muscle mass, lowering glucose, and improving anxiety. Case reports suggest lysine may ameliorate angina. Lysine acetylsalicylate has been used to treat pain and to detoxify the body after heroin use. Lysine clonixinate has been used to treat migraine headaches and other painful conditions. However, limited clinical trials exist for these conditions.

What is the recommended dosage?

Lysine may be dosed from 1 to 3 g daily to prevent or treat herpes simplex infections, reserving the higher dosages for breakouts. In addition to the amount found in the average American diet, L-lysine given at doses in this range appears to be safe for use in adults and prepubertal children

 

[Sonya9]

it would be nice to know if you can feed a chicken L-lysine.

L-Lysine is already added to most all chicken feeds. Adding extra couldn't do any harm.