I figured that. Are you wanting to tackle the ins and outs of vaccination in your article? If so, I won't write mine - I'd hate for you to have the "second best" article with information about the MDV vaccine.
I wish I knew.. DO YOU KNOW?
- Thread starter mquadem
- Start date
I was including the pros and cons of Mareks vaccine and the wifes tale of catching mareks from the vaccine is about it...
I really want to try and demystify "marek's" and eduKaTe people into thinking it is poor chicken keeping and the leper disease as someone on here said..
Dang it!! I am so sorry! I don't know if there's direct correlation between MDV and prolapse - I guess the question would be the underlying cause for the prolapse. It may be possible she actually just had a prolapse, and that she was resistant... are you thinking of having a necropsy performed?
Also if you want to do yours. Feel free, I am running for elected office here in Mn, so I am up to my butt in things to do...
I'm so glad you are doing this - seriously. There were so many things I felt very misinformed about when we got our diagnosis. I seriously came within a day of having a big barbecue and calling it quits.
I was talking to a friend who has problems with her milk cow (infections) - the vet, after ordering a bunch of cultures, etc. said, "Well, this bacteria is everywhere and most all milk cows get it at some point, and it's resistant to antibiotics." Stuff is out there, and you can do everything "by the book" and yet still...
@microchick
I'm sorry to hear one of your "fat and sassy" Buffs died suddenly. I would encourage you to open her up and look to see what caused the prolapse and take and share some photos with us if you can. It could be a tumour as a result of Marek's but more likely some other cause.
It concerns me a little that you give your girls so many treats..... I'm not sure how many chickens the 4 slices of bread a day are between but it's not a healthy treat to give them on a daily basis and combined with giving them scratch too, you may be setting them up for reproductive problems. Fat/obese chickens are more likely to suffer internal laying, fatty liver syndrome and ascites and it may also be linked to salpingitis.
We all love to treat out chickens but it's important to ensure that they are not filling up on treats at the expense of eating their balanced feed. Substituting with healthy treats (meal worms, meat or fish or fruit and veggies) instead of the carbohydrate rich bread, scratch, pasta etc. is a good idea as the larger DP birds like Orps and Sussex are particularly prone to converting the carbs into fatty deposits in my experience.
I'm sorry to hear one of your "fat and sassy" Buffs died suddenly. I would encourage you to open her up and look to see what caused the prolapse and take and share some photos with us if you can. It could be a tumour as a result of Marek's but more likely some other cause.
It concerns me a little that you give your girls so many treats..... I'm not sure how many chickens the 4 slices of bread a day are between but it's not a healthy treat to give them on a daily basis and combined with giving them scratch too, you may be setting them up for reproductive problems. Fat/obese chickens are more likely to suffer internal laying, fatty liver syndrome and ascites and it may also be linked to salpingitis.
We all love to treat out chickens but it's important to ensure that they are not filling up on treats at the expense of eating their balanced feed. Substituting with healthy treats (meal worms, meat or fish or fruit and veggies) instead of the carbohydrate rich bread, scratch, pasta etc. is a good idea as the larger DP birds like Orps and Sussex are particularly prone to converting the carbs into fatty deposits in my experience.
The 4 slices of bread are for 58 birds so hopefully I'm not overdoing it there as many do not get a bite. A couple of days a week they get no bread.
They get scratch and boss in the morning only mixed with their regular morning feed. The rest of the day they get fruit (in fact I have a colander full of apple peelings for them now, veggie scraps and at times, meat broth mixed with their mash and oatmeal. The rest of the day they have their game bird finisher. I worry about the high protein in the game bird finisher (the reason I cut it with boss and scratch in the morning per my MFA rep advice but the standard sized birds who were the original flock exposed to Marek's and those birds have since the first suspicious death, had a hard time holding their weight up without the higher protein diet. Plus I have a mixed flock of cockerels, pullets and adult birds. So I do not feed layer mix but have oyster shell on the side for the hens.
Even with the current diet, I have birds that have prominent keel bones and thin legs. These birds I worry about with the upcoming winter which can be quite cold here.
Yes, I worm my birds regularly and use ACV in their water. I have been blessed with a particularly nasty and deadly strain of Marek's on my property.
They only get pasta about once every month and a half which is how often I make spaghetti and have leftovers. Considering the amount of home grown fresh fruit and veggies they get along with high grade food, (and all the bugs they can catch) I would like to think that they eat pretty healthily. I know my feed bill keeps going up so they are definitely eating the regular chicken feed I put out for them.
Unfortunately, the hen has been disposed of so there will be no necropsy done and I really have no desire to cut one of my birds open. Yes, I know, weird for a retired nurse not to be curious, but my birds are pets and thanks to Marek's I already feel as though I am fighting a loosing battle against this disease. If I cut open every one I have lost I'd start wetting the bed. My diagnosis of Marek's came via my husband who is a retired eye doctor and was able to give me a definitive diagnosis when he examined one of my bird's eyes (grey eye) with a bio microscope and recognized the internal manifestation of a herpes infection.
This hen that died this AM is the only bird I have lost to a prolapse/reproductive issue. In a flock that grew from 38 birds this time last year to 60 birds this year I think those are pretty good odds. Is Marek's a factor? Idunno. Tumor? Maybe but she had a good keep bone rating and her thighs were not skinny so I would be surprised if it was a tumor related death. She was by all appearances a healthy Buff Orpington hen 2 yrs, 8 almost 9 months old who had been a regular layer until she suffered a fatal prolapse. I suspect that she was just an older girl who's history of being an excellent layer of large eggs just caught up with her. I was curious, given that Marek's can camo itself under the disguise of a multitude of other diseases, if there were any connections between Marek's and vent prolapses? If the problem repeats itself I will hit the panic button but until that happens I'm going to mourn the passing of my sweet Baby Girl and continue to enjoy the heck out of my remaining 58 birds.
My reference to her being 'fat and sassy' in no means meant that she was an obese basketball of a bird with two legs sticking out of it. Back in the dark ages, you know, the 1950s when I was born, it was a term my equestrian father used to refer to a healthy horse. Meaning they were not skinny sick and acting depressed.
I appreciate the information, @rebrascora.and your concern. If you can give me any advice as to how to keep my bird's weight up without burning out their kidneys due to high protein in their diet, I sure would appreciate it. Carbs turn to fat. High protein is also hard on chicken's organs. So what is the happy medium? Or if dealing with Marek's is there even such a thing?
They get scratch and boss in the morning only mixed with their regular morning feed. The rest of the day they get fruit (in fact I have a colander full of apple peelings for them now, veggie scraps and at times, meat broth mixed with their mash and oatmeal. The rest of the day they have their game bird finisher. I worry about the high protein in the game bird finisher (the reason I cut it with boss and scratch in the morning per my MFA rep advice but the standard sized birds who were the original flock exposed to Marek's and those birds have since the first suspicious death, had a hard time holding their weight up without the higher protein diet. Plus I have a mixed flock of cockerels, pullets and adult birds. So I do not feed layer mix but have oyster shell on the side for the hens.
Even with the current diet, I have birds that have prominent keel bones and thin legs. These birds I worry about with the upcoming winter which can be quite cold here.
Yes, I worm my birds regularly and use ACV in their water. I have been blessed with a particularly nasty and deadly strain of Marek's on my property.
They only get pasta about once every month and a half which is how often I make spaghetti and have leftovers. Considering the amount of home grown fresh fruit and veggies they get along with high grade food, (and all the bugs they can catch) I would like to think that they eat pretty healthily. I know my feed bill keeps going up so they are definitely eating the regular chicken feed I put out for them.
Unfortunately, the hen has been disposed of so there will be no necropsy done and I really have no desire to cut one of my birds open. Yes, I know, weird for a retired nurse not to be curious, but my birds are pets and thanks to Marek's I already feel as though I am fighting a loosing battle against this disease. If I cut open every one I have lost I'd start wetting the bed. My diagnosis of Marek's came via my husband who is a retired eye doctor and was able to give me a definitive diagnosis when he examined one of my bird's eyes (grey eye) with a bio microscope and recognized the internal manifestation of a herpes infection.
This hen that died this AM is the only bird I have lost to a prolapse/reproductive issue. In a flock that grew from 38 birds this time last year to 60 birds this year I think those are pretty good odds. Is Marek's a factor? Idunno. Tumor? Maybe but she had a good keep bone rating and her thighs were not skinny so I would be surprised if it was a tumor related death. She was by all appearances a healthy Buff Orpington hen 2 yrs, 8 almost 9 months old who had been a regular layer until she suffered a fatal prolapse. I suspect that she was just an older girl who's history of being an excellent layer of large eggs just caught up with her. I was curious, given that Marek's can camo itself under the disguise of a multitude of other diseases, if there were any connections between Marek's and vent prolapses? If the problem repeats itself I will hit the panic button but until that happens I'm going to mourn the passing of my sweet Baby Girl and continue to enjoy the heck out of my remaining 58 birds.
My reference to her being 'fat and sassy' in no means meant that she was an obese basketball of a bird with two legs sticking out of it. Back in the dark ages, you know, the 1950s when I was born, it was a term my equestrian father used to refer to a healthy horse. Meaning they were not skinny sick and acting depressed.
I appreciate the information, @rebrascora.and your concern. If you can give me any advice as to how to keep my bird's weight up without burning out their kidneys due to high protein in their diet, I sure would appreciate it. Carbs turn to fat. High protein is also hard on chicken's organs. So what is the happy medium? Or if dealing with Marek's is there even such a thing?
@microchick
I understand your pain and frustration and I hope my response didn't come across as unsympathetic or critical.... feeding treats can very easily get out of hand without people realising there is a problem.... I have to check myself regularly too on this. After all, feeding dry bread doesn't even seem like a treat to us.
I would be concerned about mixing the scratch in with their regular feed as they are notorious for picking out the bits they like and sometimes they will bill out and waste the other stuff to get to it or the more dominant hens, possibly the "fat and sassy" ones (sorry but I absolutely love that phrase and just had to use it again) will have first dibs and pick out the scratch, leaving the other stuff for the lower pecking order birds.
The problem can be that people's perception of "fat" varies and many people don't recognise it in themselves or their children or their pets and some cultures actually see being "fat" as a good thing.... probably because in those cultures, only rich people have access to enough food to be fat...... anyway, I digress..... The problem with chickens is that it is very difficult, with all those feathers, to assess whether they are carrying too much fat or not enough flesh, but clearly you are monitoring that situation due to the Marek's. The other thing to be aware of, is that production birds will never be anywhere near as well covered as meat birds and the condition score chart that is occasionally used here on BYC is, I believe, angled more towards meat birds. If you have ever processed laying birds, even DP birds, you come to realise that they are naturally pretty scrawny compared to the plumpness of meat birds. Most of my layer breeds, hens and cock birds score a 2 on that chart. It is not anything to worry about and I don't try to fatten them up. Anyway, what I am saying is to be sure that their body condition is actually a problem, as your expectation may be too high for them.
It is a shame that you don't feel able to open them up, as that really is the only way to know for sure what is going on in cases like this. Without knowing what is going on inside all we can do is speculate about possible causes. In some instances it has enabled me to change the management of the rest of my flock for their benefit from what I have found, but I entirely understand that it is not something everyone can get their head around.
I have not personally come across anything linking prolapse to Marek's, but it is a disease with so many different facets that many symptoms are overlooked and like you, most people do not get/do necropsies, so that information may be lost.... prolapse is an obvious cause of death in itself, so the majority of people would not think to look for an underlying cause. I do think you are right though as regards it not being a tumour. Usually, once they get to that stage, they have started wasting away and from what you say, that was not the case with her. She may have had a heart attack as a result of straining with the prolapse, particularly if she had fatty deposits around her organs as I have seen on birds that got too much scratch. Again I am speculating.
If it was me, I would go back to a grower or flock raiser pellet as I think your game bird mix may be creating more problems than it is solving and scatter a small amount of scratch for them to forage in the run (especially if you have deep litter)..... which is it's intended use..... thereby giving them something to occupy themselves with and exercise in "scratching" to obtain the treat, negating the fat build up from it.
I understand your pain and frustration and I hope my response didn't come across as unsympathetic or critical.... feeding treats can very easily get out of hand without people realising there is a problem.... I have to check myself regularly too on this. After all, feeding dry bread doesn't even seem like a treat to us.
I would be concerned about mixing the scratch in with their regular feed as they are notorious for picking out the bits they like and sometimes they will bill out and waste the other stuff to get to it or the more dominant hens, possibly the "fat and sassy" ones (sorry but I absolutely love that phrase and just had to use it again) will have first dibs and pick out the scratch, leaving the other stuff for the lower pecking order birds.
The problem can be that people's perception of "fat" varies and many people don't recognise it in themselves or their children or their pets and some cultures actually see being "fat" as a good thing.... probably because in those cultures, only rich people have access to enough food to be fat...... anyway, I digress..... The problem with chickens is that it is very difficult, with all those feathers, to assess whether they are carrying too much fat or not enough flesh, but clearly you are monitoring that situation due to the Marek's. The other thing to be aware of, is that production birds will never be anywhere near as well covered as meat birds and the condition score chart that is occasionally used here on BYC is, I believe, angled more towards meat birds. If you have ever processed laying birds, even DP birds, you come to realise that they are naturally pretty scrawny compared to the plumpness of meat birds. Most of my layer breeds, hens and cock birds score a 2 on that chart. It is not anything to worry about and I don't try to fatten them up. Anyway, what I am saying is to be sure that their body condition is actually a problem, as your expectation may be too high for them.
It is a shame that you don't feel able to open them up, as that really is the only way to know for sure what is going on in cases like this. Without knowing what is going on inside all we can do is speculate about possible causes. In some instances it has enabled me to change the management of the rest of my flock for their benefit from what I have found, but I entirely understand that it is not something everyone can get their head around.
I have not personally come across anything linking prolapse to Marek's, but it is a disease with so many different facets that many symptoms are overlooked and like you, most people do not get/do necropsies, so that information may be lost.... prolapse is an obvious cause of death in itself, so the majority of people would not think to look for an underlying cause. I do think you are right though as regards it not being a tumour. Usually, once they get to that stage, they have started wasting away and from what you say, that was not the case with her. She may have had a heart attack as a result of straining with the prolapse, particularly if she had fatty deposits around her organs as I have seen on birds that got too much scratch. Again I am speculating.
If it was me, I would go back to a grower or flock raiser pellet as I think your game bird mix may be creating more problems than it is solving and scatter a small amount of scratch for them to forage in the run (especially if you have deep litter)..... which is it's intended use..... thereby giving them something to occupy themselves with and exercise in "scratching" to obtain the treat, negating the fat build up from it.
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Vaccinating for the first time this morning... I only have three chicks to do, so it's a good (but expensive) practice session. I probably wouldn't bother, but I've got a completely black AC in the bator - all the way down to its toenails. And, I want to experience the process as I've never vaccinated anybody for anything. I will keep you posted. 
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