I'm losing chickens one by one

[mafaller]

1) What type of bird , age and weight.

I have 13 week old birds. I asked for 10 new hampshire reds, 15 black sex links, and two barred rocks. As they have grown I have found that they are mixed together. The barred rocks have some brownish red in their feathers and alot of the black sex links have red or gold mixed in. So, basically they are mutt chickens. I got them were they were estimated to be 1 week old. Now sure of their weights some are much smaller than others, but two of my red roosters seem to be 4 or 5 pounds. 3 roosters and the rest hens (as well as I can see)

2) What is the behavior, exactly.

I lost 6 chicks in the first few weeks. They would just stop eating and would only drink if I took them to water. They were weak and lethargic and then died. I was told by the man I bought them from that they were just a bad batch because he felt I was doing everything correctly. Since those losses, I have continued losing a chicken here and there. I had one red one that went completely lame and I put her down. I thought marek's an kept a watch. Then I lost a red one, for no apparent reason. Then one of my barred rocks died out of nowhere, and I contacted the forum. I had asked the farmer's coop and they suggested a terramycin??? antibiotic to mix with the water, but the posters seemed to think it may be cocci and that wouldn't help cocci. I've now lost another red a few days ago and now the final barred rock just turned up dead. I did notice that she was the only chicken that was acting sleepy while I was there yesterday, but she was eating and running around so I didn't worry about it. I am down to 15 chickens out of 27 Oh, I also have one small black hen that has a leg that doesn't work very well. She's doing fine though. Her leg went down two days after the first chicken went badly lame. She, however, has made it just fine. ???? Oh, wanted to ad that some of my chickens are half the size of the regular ones and quite a few of them have almost non-existant combs. My roosters have 3 inch combs and some of my "hens" have barely visible non-red combs.


3) Is there any bleeding, injury, broken bones or other sign of trauma.

None on any of them


4) What happened, if anything that you know of, that may have caused the situation.

No clue.

5) What has the bird been eating and drinking, if at all.

Starter Grower feed

6) How does the poop look? Normal? Bloody? Runny? etc.

As far as I can tell their poop is fine. I have found poop out there before that was dark brown almost reddish that was runny and one of the birds that died had an almost clear poop

7) What has been the treatment you have administered so far?

None, just watching and reading trying to figure out. I was thinking about adding vitamins to the water??

8 ) What is your intent as far as treatment? For example, do you want to treat completely yourself, or do you need help in stabilizing the bird til you can get to a vet?

Can't afford vetting, but would definitely like to fix this if I can.

9) If you have a picture of the wound or condition, please post it. It may help.


10) Describe the housing/bedding in use

They are in a coop that is completly enclosed with chain link. They have a tin roof and an area that is walled on three sides. They have a ladder for roosting, but we are going to add better roosts soon because they dont' seem to like the ladder. (it's metal and should be wood) The bedding is straw. They have water that is on a float so it is constantly full and I change it at least once a day. They have a hanging feeder and I usually spread some feed on the ground as well so the little ones can get food too.


This situation is so frustrating. I've read books (Storey's Guides and Medical reference) I scour the internet and tried to do everything "right" and I'm losing birds like crazy. My husband's grandmother had black sex links for eggs and she kept them on a dirt floor in an enclosed coop that probably gave each bird 1 sq ft of space and she rarely lost any????? Is raising chickens THIS hard??? Any help is appreciated!

Michelle

 

[threehorses]

First, if you are about to lose any others, I would contact your local state vet or ag extension and get a bird tested. That will eliminate guessing. Losing half your flock is not at all usual.

Second, all of your birds need to be picked up and examined for the following:

Parasites (do this at night): examine the birds thoroughly for mites/lice, anything very very tiny and moving on the skin. Pay careful attention in the areas at the back of the neck and near the vent. Look also on the shafts of the feathers. Look for eggs, nits, etc - breaking of the skin, dark patches, anything that smells bad. Particularly under the wings.

Weight: check their "keel score". The keel bone is the bone that runs down the center of their abdomen and breast. Feel it and the meat around it. The keel bone should be felt, but not like a spatula. There should be firm rounded meat to either side of it. Not mushy, not too thin.

Abdomen: Gently feel their abdomens. This more applies to adult birds but we'll use it now. You shouldn't feel any fluids or excess weight or lumpiness in the area between their legs and further back to the vent.

Legs: Check the scales on their legs and feet. Are they smooth and sit well against the bird, or do they at all stick up? Any sores? breaks in the skin?

Vent: Check carefully for any droppings clinging to the vent areas. Look at the skin around the vent. Is there any white or black waxy bits there? Any reddening or inflammation?

Throat: Open the bird's mouth. Look at the roof of their mouth, down the throat. Smell it - is it sour? Are there any white patches like thrush? Any difficulty breathing?

Breathing: Other than being stressed, are the birds breathing normally otherwise? If not, where is the problem? Upper? (panting) Lower? (tail bobbing) Both? Wheezing?

Eyes: Are both eyes clear with the conjunctive (third eyelid) firmly in place and out of site? Are both pupils nearly perfectly round and responsive? (Put your hand over an eye - the eye dilates. When you remove your hand, the pupil should constrict.)

Droppings: occassional runny and rusty colored droppings, or dark brown bad-chocolate-pudding-like droppings are normal. Those are usually from the cecum, which empties out occassionally. The majority of droppings should be solid feces with a little clear (urine) and pure white pasty urates on top. Sometimes droppings look more runny if you don't find them immediately as the urine (the clear) dissolves the feces( the solids). Seeing a lot or clear (urine) in the summer with some urates isn't unusual as birds drink a lot. There are lots of good sites to help you determine if the droppings you're seeing are normal.

Crops: Feel the crop at the front of the bird first thing in the morning before they eat. It should be empty. Crops empty over night. That's really the only time to tell if you have a crop stasis problem (unless the interior of the throat smells particularly bad).


I'd say it's possible that you lost some birds to mareks. however, if you can fill out the above flock history for you it will seriously help us to be more accurate.

Also consider heat - it's very hot right now and birds will overheat easily. This can cause all of the problems you've listed, but then again many diseases do. I'd make very sure that the birds are keeping nice and cool. I personally would also recommend shavings rather than hay particularly in the summer time. No cedar - pine or aspen. I find that hay is less absorbant and tends to encourage blooms of cocci. Pine is more dry and bacteria don't do as well in dry.

As for vitamins, if you do it I would recommend giving by mouth rather than in the water. The most important (and sadly the most quickly degraded) vitamins are the oil vitamins A, D, and E. They require fats and oils to absorb properly. For that reason, feeds that are older or aren't stored well often lose potency of those vitamins. Water vitamins don't really give any oils/fats to help facilitate absorbtion and the vitamins degrade easily in the packages. For that reason, for ill birds and for your flock, I'd recommend something that can be fed. A lot of people (including myself) recommend non-iron formula Enfamil PolyViSol vitamins. That's a good source of A, D, E, B12, and some other things. Two to three drops in the beak daily (when you do your exam) will suffice.

You can also use yogurt and boiled eggs in a mash (wetted crumbles) in the morning before the other food also helps. You can give additional vitamin E if you wish.

Alternately, if you don't think you can catch up the birds daily for vitamins, you can use fortified wheat germ oil (from the feedstore - small bottle) and spritz it on the first feeding daily using a travel sprayer. Alternately you can mix it in the feed at a rate of a half a shot glass per gallon of feed- mix it very very quickly and thoroughly. (It's easier to mist.) That provides A, D, and E in an oil. If you do that, also crush a B-complex vitamin into the food.

Another option is to mix your Enfamil vitamins in the boiled mashed egg and make sure every bird gets some. But it's not as dependable as doing every bird daily. Thus the wheat germ.

The vitamins won't fix everything, but obviously this is a flock with something dampening their immune system and properly given vitamins may help their immune response and healing. Yogurt will help their beneficial and essential bacteria of the gut. It will also help them to be more thrifty.

OK,, so if you can please answer all the questions above (and I apologize that they're so many but each one is important for a very specific reason) it would be greatly appreciated. You can just cut and paste my post, remove the recommendations, and answer after each question like you did the sticky. thank you for doing that! That does tell a lot.

 

[mafaller]

Thanks Nathalie, I'll try and answer your questions tonight.

It's an overwhelming post, but I'll take them one at a time. haha I feel like I'll be a chicken vet by the time this is all over.

 

[threehorses]

Quote:
Lol yeah sorry about that.

And yes - the good of this (and there's always some good if you look hard enough) is that by doing this exam, you will be practicing one of the finest methods of disease prevention ever: monthly exams.

Seriously!

More money is saved by these methods:

Giving a weekly to monthly nutritional booster of yogurt and boiled eggs.
Keeping 90-95% of the diet a very fresh complete feed appropriate for the birds' age.
Keeping both oyster shell and granite grit in front of birds from the time they are five months old, or eat solid grains - whichever comes first. No matter what the soil is like where you live.
Keeping the coops ready for parasites by using dusts under the bedding and painted on the wood.
Giving the birds sunshine (for calcium absorbtion and germ/parasite killing)
Encouraging dust baths (particularly if you use DE in the dust bath)
Worming at least twice a year with ivermectin or another full spectrum wormer like levamisole.
Examining the birds no less than monthly, more like weekly.
Keeping their area dry.
Making sure their water is JUST water - no vitamins. Only OACV occassionally for its benefits.
Feeding vitamins, not giving them in water. And then making sure oil vitamins come with the oil!
Quarantining thoroughly or keeping a closed flock.
Keeping different aged birds separate until 5 months old older.

That's the good stuff!

 

[mafaller]

Alright here goes.

I examined three birds out of the 15 remaining. Then I ran in to tell the teacher. haha My lame legged bird seemed by all accounts healthy other than his leg not working right. All the things you asked me to check came out just fine. Then I checked one of my big roosters and he was just fine as well. Then, dummy me, I checked my tumor rooster. I forgot to tell you about him. He's got a big "tumor" on his chest. Well, when I check him he seemed very tender as I reached from his keel down towards between his legs. His skin back near his vent(not right around his vent, farther down between his legs) is swollen, seems fluid filled, and is actually reddish in color. He's got a lump on his keel as well that seems like maybe his crop is full of water, but it's always there????? He's had that "tumor" thing on his chest for a while now, but it didn't seem to be causing him any problems. His whole keel area just didn't feel nice and firm like the others I had checked. Everything else on him checked out. I will confess that although I have no trouble catching my birds and handling them, I wasn't quite brave enough to grab that beak and open that mouth.

Sorry. I didn't smell anything near their mouth, but I was too cowardly to look. Maybe I can get my husband to do it.

I just thought I'd report back that my biggest rooster definitely has something going on. Any thoughts?

Thanks so much and I'll keep up the checking, but I'm short extra hands right now. I had to get my brother-in-law to come over and watch my 4 children under the age of 7 while I had my husband's cousin read off what I was supposed to check and write my findings. hahaha Turned into a big operation.

Thanks
Michelle

 

[Andora]

What state are you in? Most states have necropsy services (mine is with the university in town) and it's cheap. When I had a disease in my flock, it was only $10 to get a bird tested and it explained everything. I really, really recommend doing it. You'll feel so much better to not have to guess any longer!

One of my birds also had a tumor--it was hard and black. The necropsy showed Avian Leukosis, which is a contagious chicken cancer.
Also, in my sick flock the necropsy showed they had a heavy cocci load but they did not have bloody poop. They were just dropping one by one for no apparent reason and they had anywhere from brown poop to green poop to clear poop towards the end. So it is possible that your birds are sickly and have cocci. (When my chicks get cocci now, healthy chicks, they do have bloody poop and then they fully recover in a week. But diseased birds don't recover like that.)

It seems like you have a disease in your flock for sure. It's not normal for them to all die off. I know how depressing it is when this happens. I lost my entire first flock! Get a necropsy if you can!! If they are diseased there isn't anything you can do about it since most chicken diseases remain contagious for life even if the chicken survives. (Aside from cocci, which is treatable.) The best thing you can do is to cull them all, disinfect extremely well, and start fresh with birds you know are disease free.

 

[threehorses]

Quote:
My first instincts on the big rooster are that it's Marek's. (other things could be happening secondarily because of the reduced immune system d.t. exposure to mareks - those other things still need to be ruled out) That would fit in with the other birds who had lameness and paralysis issues. Is the tumor like a blister?

Here are some articles. The first is rather dry but has a good picture of one type of optical marek's
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marek's_disease

A little more simply and kindly put:
http://www.shagbarkbantams.com/page9.htm

Here's a slideshow and mareks presentation that has some pictures that might descibe what you're talking about?
http://www.canadianpoultry.ca/cms_pdfs/ … 081905.pdf

Give us your thoughts on that, please. And yeah - I still don't like opening birds' mouths. It's my least favorite task.

p.s. (added later) I think it's adorable that everyone was helping! That teaches the kiddos an important lesson about responsibility, husbandry, etc. Very nice!!

 

[mafaller]

Andora,

I'm in North Florida. I'll check into necropsy places. Thanks.

Yeah, I haven't seen any bloody poo, but I'm expecting there to be a cocci problem because I see and read about it everywhere.

I'm just not sure why ME!!! Like I said before I know of so many people that don't follow the books and don't do the things they are supposed to do and their chickens live forever. I do all this reading and think I've got it handled and when they started dropping I realized I didn't know crap.

That's the point we are at now. Is it worth feeding these chickens, hoping they survive to start being laying hens or is it better to wipe them out and start over? I know a necropsy is the only SURE way, but I'm hoping that someone will pop on this forum and say it's something that is curable and/or treatable and they will be ok.

Also, on a side note if I do have to consider this flock a loss how do I make the coop acceptable for the next group?? How do I know I'm not passing it on to the new chicks?

Thanks again for all the help
Michelle

 

[Jamie821]

If they came from a place that has had alot of rain and water standing it could be in simple terms pneumonia or cholera. It is going around bad right now from muddy pens and all the rain. Pneumonia will affect the joints if left untreated. If it is that or cholera you have to give one half cc tylan 50 under skin and them five days of denegard one tablespoon per gallon for five days then LS 50 one teaspoon per gallon for another five days. You must keep them away from any other water source as they will not like the denegard but they will drink it if none other is available. Then after treatment you have to disinfect everything.

 

[mafaller]

Nathalie,

That 2nd article sure sounds like what I've got. The 3rd said forbidden, but I think I have enough. So, now what do I do? Do I let these guys keep going and expect a resistant flock when they are older than 20 weeks, or do I cull them? Opinions are welcome. What would you guys do? Will my lame chick and my half size girls ever lay if they are stunted? Can we eat them if they have marek's? What a mess.