I'm sick and tired of the "bully" stereotype
- Thread starter Miss Red
- Start date
Quote:
Sorry to say, but the idea that "its all in the training/raising" of a dog dictates behavior is false. Training and raising a dog can exaggerate/exacerbate/compliment a dogs natural genetic temperament. All dogs are born with a temperament and genetics that tell them how to deal with life, stress, situations and so forth. The way the dog sees and reacts to his environment is, for the most part, hard wired. Good sound judgment and raising of a dog can make the dog safer, more predictable and more reliable as a companion. Genetics are very very powerful.
I have seen far too many puppies that are trained "right", raised "right" and just over all had really good people for owners. I have seen these same dogs super fearful, super reactive and super aggressive for NO other reason than a poor temperament. This includes Pitties and AmStaffs. I worked at a large dog training facility and our head trainer bred pitties and Ams for show and working. Her dogs were obedience champions, Schutzhund trialed and finished, and conformation champions as well. Her dogs were well socialized, trained. All that you could ask an owner to do with their dog.
Long story short several dogs from her breedings were put to sleep for killing other dogs, dogs that they were raised with from puppies (and, incedently raised by other trainers at the facility). Her dogs also were known to be extremely reactive to unknown stressful situations. These were dogs that were also obedience champions, finished show dogs and raised by really knowledgeable owners. One of her dogs got lose one time on the training facility grounds and the dog freaked totally when a person the dog had known all its life approached. Became very aggressive and fearful. Just an unknown situation to the dog, but with a proper temperament the dog wouldn't have ever seen such a situation as a threat.
The only way to truely know what you have in a dog's temperament is to test the dog to stressors and gauge reactions and how long it takes for the dog to recover from stress. Every dog that has teeth and a mouth that opens can bite. Every dog has aggression in its genetic make up, after all aggression is an NORMAL canine behavior.
ETA: I have also known lots of pitties that were great dogs with excellent temperaments. I was just trying to make a point about nature vs nurture.
Sorry to say, but the idea that "its all in the training/raising" of a dog dictates behavior is false. Training and raising a dog can exaggerate/exacerbate/compliment a dogs natural genetic temperament. All dogs are born with a temperament and genetics that tell them how to deal with life, stress, situations and so forth. The way the dog sees and reacts to his environment is, for the most part, hard wired. Good sound judgment and raising of a dog can make the dog safer, more predictable and more reliable as a companion. Genetics are very very powerful.
I have seen far too many puppies that are trained "right", raised "right" and just over all had really good people for owners. I have seen these same dogs super fearful, super reactive and super aggressive for NO other reason than a poor temperament. This includes Pitties and AmStaffs. I worked at a large dog training facility and our head trainer bred pitties and Ams for show and working. Her dogs were obedience champions, Schutzhund trialed and finished, and conformation champions as well. Her dogs were well socialized, trained. All that you could ask an owner to do with their dog.
Long story short several dogs from her breedings were put to sleep for killing other dogs, dogs that they were raised with from puppies (and, incedently raised by other trainers at the facility). Her dogs also were known to be extremely reactive to unknown stressful situations. These were dogs that were also obedience champions, finished show dogs and raised by really knowledgeable owners. One of her dogs got lose one time on the training facility grounds and the dog freaked totally when a person the dog had known all its life approached. Became very aggressive and fearful. Just an unknown situation to the dog, but with a proper temperament the dog wouldn't have ever seen such a situation as a threat.
The only way to truely know what you have in a dog's temperament is to test the dog to stressors and gauge reactions and how long it takes for the dog to recover from stress. Every dog that has teeth and a mouth that opens can bite. Every dog has aggression in its genetic make up, after all aggression is an NORMAL canine behavior.
ETA: I have also known lots of pitties that were great dogs with excellent temperaments. I was just trying to make a point about nature vs nurture.
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Jamie does make a very good and accurate point. There are dogs, in every breed, that are born with unstable temperments. No amount of training is going to change these dogs and make them 'safe'. There are also many dogs out there that have 'issues' from being dominant, shy, etc, and need an experienced person to train and handle them to make them good citizens. Without proper training, some of them become very pushy,dominant, and at worst, some can become aggressive. (But this can be said of just about any breed of dog. ) So both nature and nurture play a part in how a dog will turn out. I think what the OP was trying to say is that people shouldn't just assume a bully dog is going to rip your face off. I"ve had plenty of other breeds give it a try.
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Jamie, I have the utmost respect for you and your valuable opinions, but I would like to disagree. Most of Michael Vick's dogs were involved in the fighting were ring given to a no-kill shelter to be rehomed, and most of which are with foster families and even said to be good with other family pets.
Edited to clairify.
Jamie, I have the utmost respect for you and your valuable opinions, but I would like to disagree. Most of Michael Vick's dogs were involved in the fighting were ring given to a no-kill shelter to be rehomed, and most of which are with foster families and even said to be good with other family pets.
Edited to clairify.
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- Jul 26, 2010
- 2,969
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There is nothing in Vick's situation that disproves the previous post. She said SOME DOGS OF EVERY BREED.
The thing people forget, is that breeders of fighting dogs SELECT DOGS OF UNSTABLE TEMPERAMENT AND BREED THEM. THEY PREFER THEM. THEY SPECIFICALLY BREED THEM.
SURE, quite a few pit bulls become great pets. That is because the breeders have not been totally successful in producing a consistently fighting dog.
First of all, there are a few pit breeders out there that don't breed for fighting, adding to the gene pool.
Second, no effort to breed in ANY trait is 100% successful in all individuals.
Third, the way the fighting breeders select dogs for the fighting traits is rather bass-ackwards.
Fourth, some fight as they want, but don't bite people.
Fifth, some dogs can be retrained when older, and some cannot.
Sixth, get a dog when it's eight weeks old, never allow it to fight, teach it to tolerate other dogs, punish it when it growls (stead of giving it a treat), the 'fighting background' is LESS LIKELY to come out, OVERALL, in ALL INDIVIDUALS. That says absolutely nothing about how any ONE individual is going to be.
The problem with the fighting breeds is that they have a tendency to hang on, and to bite repeatedly, which makes them more dangerous, that and the structure of their jaw, which is blocky with very good jaw muscles. If the individual has that makeup and is trained to do so, he can very easily kill another dog or person.
In some dogs, a 'fighting temperament' means they can be TRAINED to fight. or bite In others, it means they CAN'T be trained NOT to fight or bite. In still others, it means they cannot be trained to fight or bite.
Dogs that fight other dogs are often easier to train to attack humans, as in a drug house dog that bites anything that walks in the door except the man that feeds him. There is a very, very significant difference between those two types of dogs. In some dogs, 'fighting temperament' means they would fight other dogs, unless they're taught not to. In others, it means they can never be left with other dogs.
Breeds bred to fight until a hundred years ago, have fewer fighting temperaments. Breeds still bred to fight, have more fighting temperaments.
Look, I know you all love your pit bulls, but you are trying to deny reality. The pit bull is bred to fight and has been for hundreds of years. Some can be pets and some cannot. 'Training' is not always undo-able in all individuals.
If the dog is an eight week old pup and is never encouraged to bite or fight, he is less likely to bite or fight man or beast.
If the dog is five years old and has been in the fighting ring for three years and in a drug house for two years, he is a lot more likely to bite or fight. And harder to change.
PLUS - you're creating false ideas in less than able dog trainers, who could NEVER do what you have done. What you have done, is, in some measure (we can argue the %'s all day) because you're a good dog trainer, because you get the dogs as pups in some cases, and I'm sure ther are other reasons.
BUT PLEASE - STOP TRUMPETING FROM THE ROOFTOPS THAT ANYONE CAN DO THIS WITH ANY PIT BULL FROM ANY SITUATION AND THAT EVERYONE OF THEM CAN COME OUT PERFECT. You're makign dangerous, inaccurate statements. And you're going to get someone hurt - badly.
It's no different from saying that every off the track thoroughbred is quiet enough for a beginner to ride in a field 3 days after it races or that every stud colt in the world is a lamb, just because YOU HAD ONE THAT WAS. Because you say this, some danged fool with no experience with animals is going to get one and get hurt - enough do no matter what you say, don't ADD to it!
Does it make a great pet? Yes, quite often, as breeding in traits is not a perfect science, and training and early rearing accounts for a lot. 'Genes aren't destiny' as they say, but to be perfectly truthful, for every pet pit bull, we can argue all day about how many OTHERS get put down right when they come out of the drug house or the fighting ring, because once taught to fight and be aggressive, they can't be changed.
A guy I dated had two dogs. One was part Airdale. The part Airdale bit five kids. He bit every time someone got behind him when he was lying down. The other dog was an English Sheepdog mix. Every time someone got behind it, it turned around and smiled at them.
There IS a difference between dog breeds and types. I've had a number of different breeds and types and mixes. And they are ALL different.
I trained a beagle once, I said 'heel' to it, and it jumped up and bit me in the throat. Most beagles, you would not exactly expect that. It was both - untrained/spoiled and it was in addition a very strange beagle that startled every time there was something behind it. Trained a blood hound - equally spoiled and untrained. If you tried to get it to do something it did not want to, it would growl, but it would not jump up and bite you in the throat. Both scent hounds, both typically non dangerous, just determined to hunt. I helped with two greyhound pups(both not track hounds, pets)...one didn't care a fig for people, it had a thousand mile stare in the distance, the other would sit there and stare at you in the face all day, wiggling and wagging its tail with joy every time you even looked at it. The thousand mile starer who cared nothing for people got EIGHTEEN MONTHS of TEAM and other wholistic training starting at 3 months (because the breeder could see it had a BIG problem), wrapped in the ace bandage, the whole nine yards. They put more work into that dog than you could imagine. It got a little bit better, but it was never like the other pup.
The most dangerous type of 'dog you can't fix' is a dog that is afraid. You can socialize and a lot of them get fixed. And some, you can't fix.
They startle - no - I don't mean an abused dog. I mean a dog that hits the whelping room floor like this. You can hold them in your hand, turn them, they brace and start getting agitated, when they are 12 hours old. They become reactive dogs, fear biters, and fear biting is unpredictable, inconsistent, and very, very dangerous. A dog that is truly 'agitation trained' is even more dangerous than a fear biter, because it bites more repeatedly.
Among ALL breeds, there are some that are very, very dangerous, and some that are not.
What makes them dangerous? Well, much temperament and behavior are 'plastic' (can be molded) but some things are innate. If there is someone around to abuse and agitate that dog til it's as erratic as a pinwheel in a tornado, that may be healable by someone, or never be healable.
One thing I've learned as I got older, Tom Dorrance, the old horse trainer, who answered most questions with these words, sure was right:
"It depends"
The thing people forget, is that breeders of fighting dogs SELECT DOGS OF UNSTABLE TEMPERAMENT AND BREED THEM. THEY PREFER THEM. THEY SPECIFICALLY BREED THEM.
SURE, quite a few pit bulls become great pets. That is because the breeders have not been totally successful in producing a consistently fighting dog.
First of all, there are a few pit breeders out there that don't breed for fighting, adding to the gene pool.
Second, no effort to breed in ANY trait is 100% successful in all individuals.
Third, the way the fighting breeders select dogs for the fighting traits is rather bass-ackwards.
Fourth, some fight as they want, but don't bite people.
Fifth, some dogs can be retrained when older, and some cannot.
Sixth, get a dog when it's eight weeks old, never allow it to fight, teach it to tolerate other dogs, punish it when it growls (stead of giving it a treat), the 'fighting background' is LESS LIKELY to come out, OVERALL, in ALL INDIVIDUALS. That says absolutely nothing about how any ONE individual is going to be.
The problem with the fighting breeds is that they have a tendency to hang on, and to bite repeatedly, which makes them more dangerous, that and the structure of their jaw, which is blocky with very good jaw muscles. If the individual has that makeup and is trained to do so, he can very easily kill another dog or person.
In some dogs, a 'fighting temperament' means they can be TRAINED to fight. or bite In others, it means they CAN'T be trained NOT to fight or bite. In still others, it means they cannot be trained to fight or bite.
Dogs that fight other dogs are often easier to train to attack humans, as in a drug house dog that bites anything that walks in the door except the man that feeds him. There is a very, very significant difference between those two types of dogs. In some dogs, 'fighting temperament' means they would fight other dogs, unless they're taught not to. In others, it means they can never be left with other dogs.
Breeds bred to fight until a hundred years ago, have fewer fighting temperaments. Breeds still bred to fight, have more fighting temperaments.
Look, I know you all love your pit bulls, but you are trying to deny reality. The pit bull is bred to fight and has been for hundreds of years. Some can be pets and some cannot. 'Training' is not always undo-able in all individuals.
If the dog is an eight week old pup and is never encouraged to bite or fight, he is less likely to bite or fight man or beast.
If the dog is five years old and has been in the fighting ring for three years and in a drug house for two years, he is a lot more likely to bite or fight. And harder to change.
PLUS - you're creating false ideas in less than able dog trainers, who could NEVER do what you have done. What you have done, is, in some measure (we can argue the %'s all day) because you're a good dog trainer, because you get the dogs as pups in some cases, and I'm sure ther are other reasons.
BUT PLEASE - STOP TRUMPETING FROM THE ROOFTOPS THAT ANYONE CAN DO THIS WITH ANY PIT BULL FROM ANY SITUATION AND THAT EVERYONE OF THEM CAN COME OUT PERFECT. You're makign dangerous, inaccurate statements. And you're going to get someone hurt - badly.
It's no different from saying that every off the track thoroughbred is quiet enough for a beginner to ride in a field 3 days after it races or that every stud colt in the world is a lamb, just because YOU HAD ONE THAT WAS. Because you say this, some danged fool with no experience with animals is going to get one and get hurt - enough do no matter what you say, don't ADD to it!
Does it make a great pet? Yes, quite often, as breeding in traits is not a perfect science, and training and early rearing accounts for a lot. 'Genes aren't destiny' as they say, but to be perfectly truthful, for every pet pit bull, we can argue all day about how many OTHERS get put down right when they come out of the drug house or the fighting ring, because once taught to fight and be aggressive, they can't be changed.
A guy I dated had two dogs. One was part Airdale. The part Airdale bit five kids. He bit every time someone got behind him when he was lying down. The other dog was an English Sheepdog mix. Every time someone got behind it, it turned around and smiled at them.
There IS a difference between dog breeds and types. I've had a number of different breeds and types and mixes. And they are ALL different.
I trained a beagle once, I said 'heel' to it, and it jumped up and bit me in the throat. Most beagles, you would not exactly expect that. It was both - untrained/spoiled and it was in addition a very strange beagle that startled every time there was something behind it. Trained a blood hound - equally spoiled and untrained. If you tried to get it to do something it did not want to, it would growl, but it would not jump up and bite you in the throat. Both scent hounds, both typically non dangerous, just determined to hunt. I helped with two greyhound pups(both not track hounds, pets)...one didn't care a fig for people, it had a thousand mile stare in the distance, the other would sit there and stare at you in the face all day, wiggling and wagging its tail with joy every time you even looked at it. The thousand mile starer who cared nothing for people got EIGHTEEN MONTHS of TEAM and other wholistic training starting at 3 months (because the breeder could see it had a BIG problem), wrapped in the ace bandage, the whole nine yards. They put more work into that dog than you could imagine. It got a little bit better, but it was never like the other pup.
The most dangerous type of 'dog you can't fix' is a dog that is afraid. You can socialize and a lot of them get fixed. And some, you can't fix.
They startle - no - I don't mean an abused dog. I mean a dog that hits the whelping room floor like this. You can hold them in your hand, turn them, they brace and start getting agitated, when they are 12 hours old. They become reactive dogs, fear biters, and fear biting is unpredictable, inconsistent, and very, very dangerous. A dog that is truly 'agitation trained' is even more dangerous than a fear biter, because it bites more repeatedly.
Among ALL breeds, there are some that are very, very dangerous, and some that are not.
What makes them dangerous? Well, much temperament and behavior are 'plastic' (can be molded) but some things are innate. If there is someone around to abuse and agitate that dog til it's as erratic as a pinwheel in a tornado, that may be healable by someone, or never be healable.
One thing I've learned as I got older, Tom Dorrance, the old horse trainer, who answered most questions with these words, sure was right:
"It depends"
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First of all, nothing in my post was trying to disprove anything that Jamie_Dog_Trainer said. I respect her opinions and information. I was just disagreeing with her.
I would love to argue, I really would. But out of respect for the OP, I will not. This was not an invitation for you to jump all over me.
Oh, and please don't contine to provoke me, biting my tongue is really beginning to hurt.
I would love to argue, I really would. But out of respect for the OP, I will not. This was not an invitation for you to jump all over me.
Oh, and please don't contine to provoke me, biting my tongue is really beginning to hurt.
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- Jul 26, 2010
- 2,969
- 3
- 171
I would never argue against anyone who wanted to help a dog. I just think you're being too rigid in your statements. There are dogs that will turn out alright and there are dogs that will not.
And heredity and hundreds of years of breeding cannot ALWAYS be erased, either.
It breaks my heart to see drug house and fighting dogs put down. It fills me with such a fury against the unfairness of the world and the soullessness of some people that I can't even put it into words.
But in most cases, I think the behavioral experts who analyze them are pretty spot on in picking the ones that are too damaged to ever recover. 'Training' is not always so easy to fix. 'Experience' is not always easy to erase.
I'm glad y'all have taken dogs that have some strikes against them and made them into wonderful pets. But to even imply or suggest this is always possible, or that every pit bull is therefore a perfect pet for ANYONE, because YOU have ONE that worked out, I really can't sit here and just listen and nod. You're going to get someone hurt.
And heredity and hundreds of years of breeding cannot ALWAYS be erased, either.
It breaks my heart to see drug house and fighting dogs put down. It fills me with such a fury against the unfairness of the world and the soullessness of some people that I can't even put it into words.
But in most cases, I think the behavioral experts who analyze them are pretty spot on in picking the ones that are too damaged to ever recover. 'Training' is not always so easy to fix. 'Experience' is not always easy to erase.
I'm glad y'all have taken dogs that have some strikes against them and made them into wonderful pets. But to even imply or suggest this is always possible, or that every pit bull is therefore a perfect pet for ANYONE, because YOU have ONE that worked out, I really can't sit here and just listen and nod. You're going to get someone hurt.
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Quote:
I cahllenge you to fing any of my 3473 posts in which I say that a pit bull is a perfect pet for anyone. There are servral dog breeds that do not make good pets for just anyone, not just pit bulls. In fact, I would like you to read this post from a previous pit bull thread....
Quote:
Now, imply that I am an ignorant fool again. I dare you.
I cahllenge you to fing any of my 3473 posts in which I say that a pit bull is a perfect pet for anyone. There are servral dog breeds that do not make good pets for just anyone, not just pit bulls. In fact, I would like you to read this post from a previous pit bull thread....
Quote:
Now, imply that I am an ignorant fool again. I dare you.
- Jul 10, 2009
- 2,173
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This is from "Dog Bite Law.com" There is a reason people mistrust certain breeds:
Recent USA fatalities:
The first 6 months of 2010 produced 16 fatal dog attacks. The most frequent victims were young children who were killed by their parents' own dogs. Of the 16 decedents, 11 were young children and two more were adult children of the dog owners. Family dogs killed 14 of the 16 victims.
Only three breeds of dog were responsible for all of these deaths: pit bulls (9 confirmed, 2 probable), Rottweilers (4), and a Siberian Husky. There was a reference to "sled dogs" in one case; more information is needed in that regard. The numbers exceed 16 because another case involved death by a combination of pit bulls and Rottweilers.
As opposed to prior years, the states with statutory strict liability laws accounted for the vast majority of deaths, namely 12. "One-bite" states saw three fatalities, and a "mixed law" state had one.
July 2010. Three Americans have been killed by dogs so far this month. On July 12, 2010, 5-year-old Kyle Holland of Lincoln Park, Michigan, was killed by his parents' dogs. The boy was sleeping when the white Labrador mix and/or the husky and German shepherd mix mauled him to death. Michigan is a statutory strict liability state.
On July 20, 2010, two pit bulls killed 71-year-old Wiliam Parker of Memphis, Tennessee, and injured 4 other people. Tennessee is a statutory strict liability state. Sherry Wooten, 23, has been charged with negligent homicide, and four counts of felony reckless endangerment for the four others injured by the dogs. (Read the story by The Commercial Appeal.)
On July 22, 2010, Jacob Bisbee, a two-year-old boy, was killed by his step-grandfather's pit bulls in Concord, California, a strict liability state. The dog owner has been arrested on suspicion of child endangerment and owning a mischievous animal that caused great bodily injury or death, both felonies. (Video of this story by NBC.)
The USA has sustained 19 fatal dog attacks in 2010. For details (including a month-by-month breakdown of canine homicides since July 2006) see Dangerous and Vicious Dogs. There were 33 fatal dog attacks in 2007, 23 in 2008, and 33 in 2009.
Read The Dog Bite Law Blog on Wordpress (news and opinion) for information and commentary on recent death cases, plus updates on dog owner prosecutions and other legal news pertaining to dog ownership.
Recent USA fatalities:
The first 6 months of 2010 produced 16 fatal dog attacks. The most frequent victims were young children who were killed by their parents' own dogs. Of the 16 decedents, 11 were young children and two more were adult children of the dog owners. Family dogs killed 14 of the 16 victims.
Only three breeds of dog were responsible for all of these deaths: pit bulls (9 confirmed, 2 probable), Rottweilers (4), and a Siberian Husky. There was a reference to "sled dogs" in one case; more information is needed in that regard. The numbers exceed 16 because another case involved death by a combination of pit bulls and Rottweilers.
As opposed to prior years, the states with statutory strict liability laws accounted for the vast majority of deaths, namely 12. "One-bite" states saw three fatalities, and a "mixed law" state had one.
July 2010. Three Americans have been killed by dogs so far this month. On July 12, 2010, 5-year-old Kyle Holland of Lincoln Park, Michigan, was killed by his parents' dogs. The boy was sleeping when the white Labrador mix and/or the husky and German shepherd mix mauled him to death. Michigan is a statutory strict liability state.
On July 20, 2010, two pit bulls killed 71-year-old Wiliam Parker of Memphis, Tennessee, and injured 4 other people. Tennessee is a statutory strict liability state. Sherry Wooten, 23, has been charged with negligent homicide, and four counts of felony reckless endangerment for the four others injured by the dogs. (Read the story by The Commercial Appeal.)
On July 22, 2010, Jacob Bisbee, a two-year-old boy, was killed by his step-grandfather's pit bulls in Concord, California, a strict liability state. The dog owner has been arrested on suspicion of child endangerment and owning a mischievous animal that caused great bodily injury or death, both felonies. (Video of this story by NBC.)
The USA has sustained 19 fatal dog attacks in 2010. For details (including a month-by-month breakdown of canine homicides since July 2006) see Dangerous and Vicious Dogs. There were 33 fatal dog attacks in 2007, 23 in 2008, and 33 in 2009.
Read The Dog Bite Law Blog on Wordpress (news and opinion) for information and commentary on recent death cases, plus updates on dog owner prosecutions and other legal news pertaining to dog ownership.
Quote:
pretty simple explanation, bull breed are bred to fight, they are more muscular than other dogs.... now imagine 2 dogs with the same temperaments, 1 a bull breed, one a chihuahua.... if any were to attack, I know which one I'd rather be attacked by...
but, in saying that.... the real culprit here is the media.... they need a villain to sell their story, if it's not the doberman, it's the rottweiller, if it's not that than it's the bull terrier... now, the pitbull is just the newest super criminal they can find...
pretty simple explanation, bull breed are bred to fight, they are more muscular than other dogs.... now imagine 2 dogs with the same temperaments, 1 a bull breed, one a chihuahua.... if any were to attack, I know which one I'd rather be attacked by...
but, in saying that.... the real culprit here is the media.... they need a villain to sell their story, if it's not the doberman, it's the rottweiller, if it's not that than it's the bull terrier... now, the pitbull is just the newest super criminal they can find...
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