I'm sick and tired of the "bully" stereotype

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Your reference is one of the most biased websites out there. If you're going to come to the debate, come with material that is unbiased and factual.

From the CDC:

There is currently no accurate way to identify the number of dogs of a particular breed, and consequently no measure to determine which breeds are more likely to bite or kill.

From the American Veterinary Medical Association:

Although media reports and rumors often give the impression that certain breeds of dog are more likely to bite, there is little scientific evidence to support those claims.

Unfortunately, many attempts to control dog aggression have been misguided and ineffective, including breed-specific legislation.
 
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If I've missed something, someone tell me, but I don't think anyone was implying or suggesting that every single pit or bully dog out there would make an ideal pet for every dog owner. Rather, I think the point was that some people think all pits are bad, just because they are pits.
Honestly, I don't think pits are always the best choice for a new dog owner, or a timid owner. Can't tell you how many times I've had company over, gone to use the restroom, and come out to find my pit sitting in my guest's lap. You have to be assertive enough to not let them get away with what they want, even though it may be 'cute'.
 
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Long time ago it was the GSDs that were getting the bad rap, then the Dobermans, then Rottweilers, then Pits, then it went back to the Rotties and now back to the Pits.

A lot of the Pit craze is media driven. Sells papers and gets people to watch the news and makes people money.

I knew a sheltie who bit TWO toddlers in the face. The last one required 35 stitches. The dog was never reported because it was a SHELTIE. If it had been a Pit, the bite would have been all over the media. My dogs have been bitten repeatedly by shelties at agility trials and a couple of times the Shelties have drawn blood. Nobody thinks its a big deal because it was a sheltie that bit my dog. I guarantee you if my dog had bitten theirs, and didn't injure it or draw blood or anything, there would have been a big brouhaha.

I know multiple border collies who have gotten in fights, bitten people in the face, bitten their OWNERS, and caused general murder and mayhem. Never seen one in the media. The only dog that ever bit me in class that I had to pick up and throw away from me toward the owner and that came back too attack me again was a border collie. The owner was too afraid of it to do anything and I ended up hanging it and putting it in the car and saying "BYE!". But MY dogs are the ones everybody worries about.

I have taught agility classes for 23 years, and you know the only breeds that have actually ever drawn blood from biting me? Golden Retrievers, Border Collies, and more recently a Cocker Spaniel.

Most animal control officers call anything with a "blocky head" a pit or pit mix. Lots of dogs can have blocky heads. Male labs, for instance. Most animal control officers know far less about dogs and dog breeds than they should.

Sorry. Rant ended.

I do agree that a lot of bad people own bully type dogs and use them for bad purposes. Not the dog's fault. If Bulldogs are outlawed they will just use another breed of dog or another animal.

In Europe some the drug dealers are starting to use Barbary Macaques instead of dogs, because the dogs have been outlawed. The macaques can do much greater damage than a dog.
 
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Sorry to say, but the idea that "its all in the training/raising" of a dog dictates behavior is false. Training and raising a dog can exaggerate/exacerbate/compliment a dogs natural genetic temperament. All dogs are born with a temperament and genetics that tell them how to deal with life, stress, situations and so forth. The way the dog sees and reacts to his environment is, for the most part, hard wired. Good sound judgment and raising of a dog can make the dog safer, more predictable and more reliable as a companion. Genetics are very very powerful.

I have seen far too many puppies that are trained "right", raised "right" and just over all had really good people for owners. I have seen these same dogs super fearful, super reactive and super aggressive for NO other reason than a poor temperament. This includes Pitties and AmStaffs. I worked at a large dog training facility and our head trainer bred pitties and Ams for show and working. Her dogs were obedience champions, Schutzhund trialed and finished, and conformation champions as well. Her dogs were well socialized, trained. All that you could ask an owner to do with their dog.

Long story short several dogs from her breedings were put to sleep for killing other dogs, dogs that they were raised with from puppies (and, incedently raised by other trainers at the facility). Her dogs also were known to be extremely reactive to unknown stressful situations. These were dogs that were also obedience champions, finished show dogs and raised by really knowledgeable owners. One of her dogs got lose one time on the training facility grounds and the dog freaked totally when a person the dog had known all its life approached. Became very aggressive and fearful. Just an unknown situation to the dog, but with a proper temperament the dog wouldn't have ever seen such a situation as a threat.

The only way to truely know what you have in a dog's temperament is to test the dog to stressors and gauge reactions and how long it takes for the dog to recover from stress. Every dog that has teeth and a mouth that opens can bite. Every dog has aggression in its genetic make up, after all aggression is an NORMAL canine behavior.

ETA: I have also known lots of pitties that were great dogs with excellent temperaments. I was just trying to make a point about nature vs nurture.

WHO THE YOU KNOW WHAT WAS THIS? Obedience champions? OTCHs? in the UKC? not in the AKC. I know all the OTCHs in the AKC. Please pm the info to me if you are not comfortable posting it. Was this the Cheeks, One Stone? Who?

I respect your opinion enormously as a trainer, and do agree that some lines in any breed just have bad temperaments. i have had a bad experience with a Pit in class, and with Mals and GSDs. Mals and GSDs generally will go after humans or small dogs, the pit went after a dog. Fortunately the owners are usually on top of things. That is just insane a breeder kept a line like that.
 
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I cahllenge you to fing any of my 3473 posts in which I say that a pit bull is a perfect pet for anyone. There are servral dog breeds that do not make good pets for just anyone, not just pit bulls. In fact, I would like you to read this post from a previous pit bull thread....

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Now, imply that I am an ignorant fool again. I dare you.

There is a HUGE difference bewtween animal aggression and human aggression. A dog that is both is nuts and should be put down, be it from training or temperament.

I want to make sure that I don't think anyone who is pro-bulldog on this thread is ignorant or foolish or anything. I want to make that PERFECTLY clear. I think the people who are anti-bulldog are misinformed and don't have a wide range of experience to make an informed opinion. Even Jamie, who has had terrible experiences with Pits, said any dog can have a bad temperament. It sounds like the breeder she worked for was a VERY STUPID PERSON.

However, this is my opinion and my opinion only and it won't be popular.

All of Vick's dogs should have been put down. Any dog confiscated from a dog fighter's kennel should be put down. Any dog that bites a human should be put down, regardless of breed. There is no room in today's society for dogs that bite humans unprovoked and there is no reason to have a dog trained to bite people in the US today, other than ones highly trained for law enforcement. There is no room in today's society for dogs that have been intentionally bred to fight. Lots of pits and bulldogs out there are not bred to fight and haven't been for decades. There is no room in today's society for dead game dogs, other than to reinforce a breeder's ego. If this protocol was followed we wouldn't be having this debate about these dogs.

Pits should especially never bite humans. In America, back when their were plantations and society looked at animals differently, pit fighting was considered a gentleman's sport. There were ALWAYS 3 people in the pit during a fight - one handler for each dog and the referree. The pit dogs had to be very safe for humans to handle, even during a fight. Any fighting dog that bit a human was deemed unsafe and put down. In a differnet situation they might protect property or owner, as would most dogs, but would NEVER bite somebody unprovoked. When not in the pit the dogs were used has family companions and general farm dogs.

The pits that are trained by criminals to bite people or that bite people unprovoked from prey drive should be put down. The breed needs to be cleaned up and the poor temperaments eradicated or the entire breed will be forced out of existence. It is very sad that so many end up in pounds and shelters, but I agree they should be put down. Too many NICE pits and bulldogs out there from responsible breeders (of whom Jamie's employer was NOT one) who need homes and would make wonderful pets.

I know a couple of AmStaff breeders who have had dogs accidentally get into fights at their kennels. One guy fell down and the dogs were actually on top of him fighting. Both breeders separated the fighting dogs by themselves and were never bitten, nor did they dogs even think to try to bite the breeders. THAT is the correct temperament for this breed. With proper training the animal aggression can be put under control, if the temperament is sound.
 
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Pit bulls were NEVER bred to be people aggressive, for hundreds of years these dogs have been bred to be animal aggressive - where they think they originated from - it was large game like lions, boar, bears, etc...Then bulls back in Europe for butchers - they would hold onto the bulls noses like a lion does and hold and partially sufficate the animal so the butcher could deal with it. Then they became bait dogs - bulls, boars, rats, etc the dogs were put into competition against animals for the pure sport of blood and proving who had a tougher stronger dog. Then it went on to being easier to hide the blood sports by selectively breeding the bull dogs to be dog aggressive and pitting them against one another - it was a chain of crueling training these dogs and selectively breeding the more dog aggressive dogs to get the traits. However - for hundred of years any PEOPLE aggressive bull dog was typically put down because while they wanted them to be dog/animal aggressive they were still family pets - these dogs back in the day meant alot of these people - even though they thought it was okay to let them tear themselves apart. They didn't want a dog that may bite them or their children in their home or yard...

Pits until recent years (past few decades) were never bred to be people aggressive - they don't make good guard dogs AT ALL it isn't in their nature, and this is why when someone wants the 'tough bad boy looking pit bull' to be their 'guard dog' it takes ALOT of CRUEL training to get them people mean, and this is by aggitation training, blood training, and bite reinforcement from a YOUNG age...Then they breed these dogs to start the aggression in the genes and you get dogs that are people aggressive...

Around here the dogs that have bitten the most people according to a lady who works in the hospital here - border collies and dalmation purebred/mixes are the most common biters and its due to poor breeding.

A pit bull SHOULD make a great family pet - if not inbred or poorly bred (with people aggressive heritage)...However MANY pit bulls if not exposed and trained well at a young age have a good chance of being animal and dog aggressive. That IS in their genes - but doesn't mean its going to over rule the way they are nurtured and trained. I've seen rescued fighters become great family pets with other dogs and cats etc...But they are the exception to the rule, in general a rescued fighter is not a dog I would feel comfortable letting around other dogs - but with people? Most rescued fighters are people loving goofy fools.

A pit is like a shepherd or a collie or a hound, they were bred for a purpose - and even if the past 3 generations had nothing to do with that purpose - say a collie is a herder - you may get a border collie who bites kids ankles/legs trying to herd them and just being anxious because it doesn't have something do to do to burn off energy and that inate trait thats in its blood has come out - and it trys to find a way to do what it feels it should be doing...You can circumvent the biting/want to herd by walking and exercising - agility, etc... A hunting breed, just playing games/exercises that uses their sight or noses (depending on kind of hunting dog) to get them active and using their instincts.

A pit isn't right for every person or every home - just like a coolie or a beagle or a yippie chihuahua isn't right for every home.
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It amazes me how many people just do not understand this. They - pits - really do not make good guard dogs...........yes, there are some who are born more "protective" but mostly they have to be trained. They would not be used in drug houses if the general public were not afraid of them. (you can bet, if the general public suddenly became afraid of standard poodles......then they would be used in drug houses)


I believe the majority of people are not the "right" people to own any of the Molosser breeds.
 
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Brindlebitch:

"I challenge you to find..."

Why did you assume I was addressing you specifically, with my post?
 

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