Yeah, we weren't sure what he would end up looking like when he was a baby
In about 2-3 years, I'll be creating a new Breed of chicken called the Emerald Dragon.(Discussion)
- Thread starter MysteryChicken
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- #162
Yeah.
I wish I still had pictures of Mr. Nipper when he was a chick. He was a black chick.
Michael99
Songster
You just about described fibromelanistic Ohiki to a tee, a few breeders have them here in the US already but they are very rare. Regular Ohiki are also very hard to come by and match your description perfectly as well, with the exception of them not having feathered feet and black skin. I don't have or breed any Ohiki, the only reason I know about them is because they're a longtailed breed. Here's a few pics from the web in case anyone is interested (Maybe your drawing would have looked something similar to this, I think convergent ideas is interesting when it comes to poultry!) -
They're a very rare breed here in the US and could actually use some more people who are serious about preserving and improving the breed.
Michael99
Songster
Also, I'm going to give my 2 cents on the potential Emerald Dragon chicken breed. I don't want to come off as pessimistic but I feel like I have some knowledge that may be helpful to some on this forum. Remember, I'm not trying to be discouraging but I think it's important to be realistic.
I breed Phoenix bantams and have done a LOT of research into the genetics that go behind long tailed breeds as well as talking with and learning a lot from breeders who have been breeding long tailed breeds for decades.
So there is genetics that long tailled breeds have that other chickens don't, one of these being feather lengthening genes. This is part of what makes long tailed breeds have longer, more slender feathers (especially in the tail and saddle) that lend themselves to a more graceful type. On the opposite end of the spectrum, there are feather shortening genes, which give breeds like Cochins, Brahmas, and silkies a poofball looking tail and body type. Both feather shortening and feather lengthening genes are codominant, so if simultaneously found in the same bird, they essentially cancel each other out and you end up with a normal looking chicken.
Source - https://books.google.com/books?id=W...eather lengthening genes brian reeder&f=false
I don't think Sumatras will give you the tail and especially saddle length you are looking for, especially after factoring in the feathering shortening genes found in Brahmas, Cochins, and Silkies. Sumatras are considered one of the shortest tailed of the longtail breeds.
I also think using any of these breeds (with the possible exception of Brahmas) would set you off a lot in regards to type, leg length, and tail angle. Also, using silkies would introduce polydactyl genes that could muck things up even more, as well as recessive silkie feathering which would not serve long tailed chickens well, as silkie feathers despite being soft are very brittle and break easily. Silkies, if I'm not mistaken, would also introduce a crest and beard which would complicate things even further. Like someone else in this forum also said, introducing Easter Egger genetics would also add many other variables that would make things even more complicated.
I would say (and this is just my opinion), you could get a bird similar to what you want if you were to drop the potential green eggs, and walnut comb type, and possibly fibromelanism. Trade in the green eggs for white or tan/beige eggs, and the walnut comb for a peacomb and I think the Emerald Dragon could be a thing.
I think by combining Shamo with Phoenix and Brahma you could do it. The Phoenix would contribute the tail, saddle, and hackle length/fullness, as well as the tail angle and part of the overall body type. The Shamo would contribute the long, thick legs as well as a muscular body type, the head shape you're looking for, and the overall sporty type. Brahmas would also contribute to leg length, a large body, and a peacomb (Shamo also have all these traits). Still don't know how you'd get fibromelanism in the mix but Ayam Cemani would likely be the best bet as Sumatras don't have it (they are gypsy faced, and they are different genes) and Silkies would throw a lot of wrenches into the potential project.
Just my thoughts on the subject, either way, I wish you well in the project and keep us updated on your progress!
I breed Phoenix bantams and have done a LOT of research into the genetics that go behind long tailed breeds as well as talking with and learning a lot from breeders who have been breeding long tailed breeds for decades.
So there is genetics that long tailled breeds have that other chickens don't, one of these being feather lengthening genes. This is part of what makes long tailed breeds have longer, more slender feathers (especially in the tail and saddle) that lend themselves to a more graceful type. On the opposite end of the spectrum, there are feather shortening genes, which give breeds like Cochins, Brahmas, and silkies a poofball looking tail and body type. Both feather shortening and feather lengthening genes are codominant, so if simultaneously found in the same bird, they essentially cancel each other out and you end up with a normal looking chicken.
Source - https://books.google.com/books?id=W...eather lengthening genes brian reeder&f=false
I don't think Sumatras will give you the tail and especially saddle length you are looking for, especially after factoring in the feathering shortening genes found in Brahmas, Cochins, and Silkies. Sumatras are considered one of the shortest tailed of the longtail breeds.
I also think using any of these breeds (with the possible exception of Brahmas) would set you off a lot in regards to type, leg length, and tail angle. Also, using silkies would introduce polydactyl genes that could muck things up even more, as well as recessive silkie feathering which would not serve long tailed chickens well, as silkie feathers despite being soft are very brittle and break easily. Silkies, if I'm not mistaken, would also introduce a crest and beard which would complicate things even further. Like someone else in this forum also said, introducing Easter Egger genetics would also add many other variables that would make things even more complicated.
I would say (and this is just my opinion), you could get a bird similar to what you want if you were to drop the potential green eggs, and walnut comb type, and possibly fibromelanism. Trade in the green eggs for white or tan/beige eggs, and the walnut comb for a peacomb and I think the Emerald Dragon could be a thing.
I think by combining Shamo with Phoenix and Brahma you could do it. The Phoenix would contribute the tail, saddle, and hackle length/fullness, as well as the tail angle and part of the overall body type. The Shamo would contribute the long, thick legs as well as a muscular body type, the head shape you're looking for, and the overall sporty type. Brahmas would also contribute to leg length, a large body, and a peacomb (Shamo also have all these traits). Still don't know how you'd get fibromelanism in the mix but Ayam Cemani would likely be the best bet as Sumatras don't have it (they are gypsy faced, and they are different genes) and Silkies would throw a lot of wrenches into the potential project.
Just my thoughts on the subject, either way, I wish you well in the project and keep us updated on your progress!
Michael99
Songster
Also, just have to say that the drawing reminds me of a Minohiki, which is another long tailed Japanese breed, but unlike Ohiki they are not found in the US.
Another thing I forgot to mention, if you do not go the fibro route (which would automatically give black legs and blue earlobes on an otherwise white earlobed bird), you would have to consider what color you want the legs and earlobes to be.
Another thing I forgot to mention, if you do not go the fibro route (which would automatically give black legs and blue earlobes on an otherwise white earlobed bird), you would have to consider what color you want the legs and earlobes to be.
- Thread starter
- #166
I like the green egg idea, & prefer walnut over pea comb. Who would want a bird that's named Emerald Dragon that's a shiny greenish black, & lays white eggs instead of green which would fit the name of the bird better?
I know it's gonna be complicated with the breeds I want to use for the making of this breed, but I'll figure things out. One reason I'm waiting until I'm done with my other projects before I start working on this breed.
Opinions are allowed which is fine, & I respect that. Thanks for sharing your thoughts though.
- Thread starter
- #167
They look interesting. Never heard of them though.
Black skin is another thing I want my bird to have. Sumatras have black almost non existent earlobes.
- Thread starter
- #168
I see lots of stuff having to do with alot of skin, beak, color, & skeleton type genes in the link.
- Thread starter
- #169
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- #170
I got up 3 hours ago, so I'm tired, & still waking up.
I'm not against anything you said, but I do think going the pea comb route will be a good idea if my walnut comb idea flops. This breed will be trial, & error, meaning it'll be hard to produce, but I'll be having my sister help me with one side of the project while I work on the other.
She'll be working on the the Brahma/EE half. Making it a somewhat pure bird, only going for the Malay traits of the Brahma, & green eggs of the EE.
Me, I'll be working on the Silkie/Sumatra half, selecting against silkie feathers, polidactyly, crest, & beard.
Black skin, & walnut comb are the two things I want to keep from this breeding, combined with the shiney, black plumage of the Sumatra chicken, long legs, neck, feathers, & multiple spurs. The long tail, hackle, & saddle feathers are also a feature that'll be kept.
From that those two breedings the birds will be bred in the order: Silkie/Sumatra over Brahma/EE hen.
Both sides are modified into a more of a breed then an actual cross since I'll be working on purifying both sides with distinct characteristics.
I'll have to do several more breedings over many generations in order to produce this breed. I'm only simplifying the process.
I'm not against anything you said, but I do think going the pea comb route will be a good idea if my walnut comb idea flops. This breed will be trial, & error, meaning it'll be hard to produce, but I'll be having my sister help me with one side of the project while I work on the other.
She'll be working on the the Brahma/EE half. Making it a somewhat pure bird, only going for the Malay traits of the Brahma, & green eggs of the EE.
Me, I'll be working on the Silkie/Sumatra half, selecting against silkie feathers, polidactyly, crest, & beard.
Black skin, & walnut comb are the two things I want to keep from this breeding, combined with the shiney, black plumage of the Sumatra chicken, long legs, neck, feathers, & multiple spurs. The long tail, hackle, & saddle feathers are also a feature that'll be kept.
From that those two breedings the birds will be bred in the order: Silkie/Sumatra over Brahma/EE hen.
Both sides are modified into a more of a breed then an actual cross since I'll be working on purifying both sides with distinct characteristics.
I'll have to do several more breedings over many generations in order to produce this breed. I'm only simplifying the process.
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