Inbreeding chickens.. what should I do? + Little roo growing at a rapid rate?

[Maddison]

OK, so I've just joined the forums and it's my first time hatching with an incubator and planned to breed too. I have some Transylvanian naked necks cross (Unsure of cross one looks Orpington) there all sort of brother/sister, they all have the same father but different mothers. I've read that inbreeding chickens can cause problems such as inbreeding depression, and may also bring out weaknesses such as reduced rate of lay, low fertility, poor hatchability, and slow growth.

I've already hatched 3 chicks from my group, one ended up having a bib like her mother, another is a throwback and is completely white/orange Orpington.

And then I got the perfect little rooster, completely naked neck, actually growing at a rapid rate, he's only 1 and a half months old and he's already getting a comb, fully feathered and is starting to look like a rooster more and more every day! I'm not sure if that normal but I've read the bantams do mature faster, and I'm fairly certain his mother is the little white hen I have that is also a bantam...

anyway! since my group is only like half brother/sister is that really inbreeding? I plan to get some fully naked chicks out of them and use their first generation chicks as breeders, I don't plan to breed their chicks offspring as I plan to sell them as a side project. basically what I'm trying to say is since the parents are half-siblings and the chicks will be (half) siblings that I plan to breed, would that be a huge impact and cause problems such as inbreeding depression? I am not sure since there sorta only the first gen of inbreeding...?

the offspring of my group will all likely have different mothers (which have the same father) so does that make the chicks half inbred too ? I really don't know, I'd get a purebred naked neck to breed with but they are really hard to find here in Australia, I'd likely have to travel interstate which I don't have the money or time to do!

I should also add that I have around 14 of there eggs already in the incubator, 7 of which were already incubated for 7 days under a hen, I've not long candeled them and they are growing perfectly and the air cells in the eggs are a perfect size as well, around 4 of the 14 eggs were put in near 2 days after the rest, so they are a bit behind, I also wanted to know since some eggs are already a week along would that affect them since they would still be turning at day 18 on the count of the other eggs still needing turning? sorry for the really long post, this likely won't be my only post on incubating and chicks!

 

[SeaPolka]

You should really take out the turner when they go into lockdown, the chicks might not be able to position properly and will hurt themselves. The other eggs should be fine for a day or two without turning.

I've only seen good outcomes from inbreeding when breeding back to the parents. I don't know what will happen with sister/brother breeding. I would chose the offspring with cleanest necks and breed to the parents

 

[Foristers]

I have nothing bad about inbreeding chickens. Choose for good traits: high egg production, good eggs, etc. Do not breed inferior chickens - or don't set the eggs from weak hens in the incubator and don't allow a sickly roo to breed the hens. For me this requires isolation for a few weeks. Good luck. Can you post source for information that inbred chickens get sick/weak. Thanks!

 

[EggSighted4Life]

Hi, welcome to BYC!

As far as I am concerned ALL pure breads (any species) are a result of inbreeding. And it's true that's why hip dysplasia or cancer are so rampant in certain dog breeds. Or even deafness and other anomalies.

But when it comes to chickens... I'm gonna go ahead and call it LINE BREEDING. Here is a little illustration that might be helpful...
http://www.maransofamericaclub.com/inbreeding-chickens.html

With chickens, they are a lot more tolerant of inbreeding than some other species and so you may not have side effects show up for several generations. But that mean continuing to do CLOSE inbreeding. But if you set it up correctly... you can breed them farther apart. Like by knowing which hen they hatched from so that you don't breed together siblings of the same hen. As long as you don't keep breeding sisters to brothers...
https://www.backyardchickens.com/threads/inbreeding-and-line-breeding-poultry.734859/

Anyways, start thinking LINE breeding! It requires culling. But we eat or sell our culls.

You already got the same advice I would give for the incubator. Other than saying, probably best to set them all on the same day in the future. It's surprising, but 1 or 2 days in a hatch can make a big difference in the strength between the first hatched and the last hatched, at least when set on the same day. It can be the difference between life and death.

I would think low fertility/hatch-ability MIGHT be your first sign of too much inbreeding. Select for vigor, and don't keep any you "feel sorry" for. NO assisted hatching! It's a hard perspective to learn... BUT it's a matter of keeping the flock strong. I refuse to breed weakness into my flock, it invites parasites and disease to take up residence.

I could tell gender on most of my Turken boys by 6 weeks old. Some breeds like the Turken, Swedish Flower, and Marans seem to show gender early. While Orpington and a faverolles/Brahma seem slower to develop to me.

It's my understanding that the completely naked neck means they got 2 copies of the N and are therefor dominant for it. If they get only one copy, I think they will have some random feathers or a bow tie even. Learning all you can about your chosen breed standard (even if you are starting with mix and working for pure) should help you to determine who your best parental mating are. For example, dams pass their combs to cocks... though that might also depend if they are different combs which is dominant. But in the same comb, boys get it from their mum.

Good luck developing a fine line!

 

[Maddison]

I have nothing bad about inbreeding chickens. Choose for good traits: high egg production, good eggs, etc. Do not breed inferior chickens - or don't set the eggs from weak hens in the incubator and don't allow a sickly roo to breed the hens. For me this requires isolation for a few weeks. Good luck. Can you post source for information that inbred chickens get sick/weak. Thanks!

I got the source from a book I rented, it says and I quote "By concentrating genes, inbreeding not only creates uniformity of size, color, and type, but it also brings out weaknesses such as reduced rate of lay, low fertility, poor hatchability, and slow growth - a phenomenon called inbreeding depression. inbreeding doesn't cause these problems but does accentuate any tendency toward them" the book is called 'Storey's Guide to Raising Chickens' if you're interested.

You should really take out the turner when they go into lockdown, the chicks might not be able to position properly and will hurt themselves. The other eggs should be fine for a day or two without turning.

I've only seen good outcomes from inbreeding when breeding back to the parents. I don't know what will happen with sister/brother breeding. I would chose the offspring with cleanest necks and breed to the parents

Do you know if the eggs will be okay for around 30 mins out of the incubator while I candle them to determine age? I can remove a section of the tray so that some will get turned and others won't. I don't want to risk a few days without them turning as I'm not entirely sure that they are 7 days further along and might have to stay unturned for more than 2 days.

 

[Gray Farms]

Agreed, technically breeding siblings is line breeding and carries far few risks. Even with inbreeding though it takes many generations for defects to occur.

 

[Maddison]

Hi, welcome to BYC!

As far as I am concerned ALL pure breads (any species) are a result of inbreeding. And it's true that's why hip dysplasia or cancer are so rampant in certain dog breeds. Or even deafness and other anomalies.

But when it comes to chickens... I'm gonna go ahead and call it LINE BREEDING. Here is a little illustration that might be helpful...
http://www.maransofamericaclub.com/inbreeding-chickens.html

With chickens, they are a lot more tolerant of inbreeding than some other species and so you may not have side effects show up for several generations. But that mean continuing to do CLOSE inbreeding. But if you set it up correctly... you can breed them farther apart. Like by knowing which hen they hatched from so that you don't breed together siblings of the same hen. As long as you don't keep breeding sisters to brothers...
https://www.backyardchickens.com/threads/inbreeding-and-line-breeding-poultry.734859/

Anyways, start thinking LINE breeding! It requires culling. But we eat or sell our culls.

You already got the same advice I would give for the incubator. Other than saying, probably best to set them all on the same day in the future. It's surprising, but 1 or 2 days in a hatch can make a big difference in the strength between the first hatched and the last hatched, at least when set on the same day. It can be the difference between life and death.

I would think low fertility/hatch-ability MIGHT be your first sign of too much inbreeding. Select for vigor, and don't keep any you "feel sorry" for. NO assisted hatching! It's a hard perspective to learn... BUT it's a matter of keeping the flock strong. I refuse to breed weakness into my flock, it invites parasites and disease to take up residence.

I could tell gender on most of my Turken boys by 6 weeks old. Some breeds like the Turken, Swedish Flower, and Marans seem to show gender early. While Orpington and a faverolles/Brahma seem slower to develop to me.

It's my understanding that the completely naked neck means they got 2 copies of the N and are therefor dominant for it. If they get only one copy, I think they will have some random feathers or a bow tie even. Learning all you can about your chosen breed standard (even if you are starting with mix and working for pure) should help you to determine who your best parental mating are. For example, dams pass their combs to cocks... though that might also depend if they are different combs which is dominant. But in the same comb, boys get it from their mum.

Good luck developing a fine line!

Thanks! i'll look into this tomorrow as its already 3am here

 

[Foristers]

I got the source from a book I rented, it says and I quote "By concentrating genes, inbreeding not only creates uniformity of size, color, and type, but it also brings out weaknesses such as reduced rate of lay, low fertility, poor hatchability, and slow growth - a phenomenon called inbreeding depression. inbreeding doesn't cause these problems but does accentuate any tendency toward them" the book is called 'Storey's Guide to Raising Chickens' if you're interested.

Thank you. I think I check it from the library. I always want to hear (read) the negative side of something to make sure that I am aware.
I also wonder if there is a difference in line breeding heritage breeds vs. modern breeds - or bantams vs. normal size chickens. There are definitely powerful opinions both for and against - always good to know both sides.
My breeding program is only 2 years old but already every new generation is better than the last. I hope it stays that way. Good luck to you.

 

[SeaPolka]

I got the source from a book I rented, it says and I quote "By concentrating genes, inbreeding not only creates uniformity of size, color, and type, but it also brings out weaknesses such as reduced rate of lay, low fertility, poor hatchability, and slow growth - a phenomenon called inbreeding depression. inbreeding doesn't cause these problems but does accentuate any tendency toward them" the book is called 'Storey's Guide to Raising Chickens' if you're interested.


Do you know if the eggs will be okay for around 30 mins out of the incubator while I candle them to determine age? I can remove a section of the tray so that some will get turned and others won't. I don't want to risk a few days without them turning as I'm not entirely sure that they are 7 days further along and might have to stay unturned for more than 2 days.

Maybe 15 minutes? Yes I'd definitely try and remove a section of the turner

 

[Kusanar]

But when it comes to chickens... I'm gonna go ahead and call it LINE BREEDING. Here is a little illustration that might be helpful...
http://www.maransofamericaclub.com/inbreeding-chickens.html

Thank you!! I am now dorking out and trying to see how long you can keep it going if you had 4 pens rather than 2... I'm planning to get some quail and I will have several breeding pens, so just seeing how to switch them around to get what I need. Also, I would rather not switch them as much, due to minimizing fighting.. I'll play with the numbers and see what I can get.