Interesting article regarding commercially raised meat chickens in US

[WalkingWolf]

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How is he denying food for his people? He is trying to be sustainable by bringing chicken keeping to his country... creating jobs... local economy... probably considered a hero in Russia...

I see it more as isolationism, and it usually does not work. Trade is healthy when it is fair for both countries. I highly doubt he is looking out for his people, I think he is looking out for himself. I believe he still wants to maintain power over his people, Russians I have talked to do not consider him a hero, but I am sure they have their reasons for that, and possibly that some do. Heroes and villains are funny things and often one is considered both.

 

[Brunty_Farms]

Quote:
I got as far as that and stopped. Knock it off, get back on topic, I never named you in any way. You are looking for a personal fight, I am not.

Let's talk about Putin, and why he pulled this stunt. Do you have any opinions about Putin and how he is running Russia? Do you think we have fair trade agreements with Russia? What do you think our government should do in response to this latest action by Putin?

Knock it off? Ok... I will... LOL... sorry....

Honestly I think he is doing a good thing. If countries are banning the use of chlorine in chilling poultry there is an issue that needs to be resolved. US needs to come up with solutions instead of trying to convince that chlorine is ok to use. If the country wants 600 tons of poultry.... find a way to get it to them with out the use of chlorine.

For one, maybe open up some plants that air chill poultry... no chlorine needed. The reason behind the birds getting contaminated in the first place is because they soak 4 hours for fryers and 6 hours for roasters in bloody water and with birds that have fecal matter on them. It's not so much the actual chicken poop your use to seeing but the liquid... juices... I guess you can call it. The process of evisceration is very mechanical and if one bird is bigger than the rest, the machine may cut down too far, rupturing the intestines. One bird soaking with 1,000 is enough to contaminate them all. Since everything is done by machines... you can't notice a bird that has been ruptured.... which is why chlorine is added. Simple solution. But there are other ways to do things.... USA hasn't figured that one out yet. It's either our way or no way. Until we see that we will continue to drop in food quality... economy... and automotive...

I think there is more to it than just the chlorine... but it's a good excuse.

 

[Brunty_Farms]

Quote:
How is he denying food for his people? He is trying to be sustainable by bringing chicken keeping to his country... creating jobs... local economy... probably considered a hero in Russia...

I see it more as isolationism, and it usually does not work. Trade is healthy when it is fair for both countries. I highly doubt he is looking out for his people, I think he is looking out for himself. I believe he still wants to maintain power over his people, Russians I have talked to do not consider him a hero, but I am sure they have their reasons for that, and possibly that some do. Heroes and villains are funny things and often one is considered both.

Your right... trade is healthy. I think though that chickens are the underlying cause in isolating themselves from the US.

 

[WalkingWolf]

OK we have been over the chlorine issue in this I think enough, and going down the same road. Let's concentrate on the issue of fair trade between Russia and the US. We are not going to agree on the other and it is useless to keep it up.

 

[Brunty_Farms]

Then this argument has ran it's course. The issue is Russia will not buy our chicken... because of chlorine... That's the article. If you want to debate free trade with Russia, I think this is the wrong forum.

I'd be more than happy to talk to you about the chicken issue with Russia... but I hate politics.

 

[WalkingWolf]

Quote:
Everything is politics in it's own way... I think that is a song... LOL

The thread probably has run it's course then, but continually throwing sticks and stones was not and is not going to get us anywhere. We can discuss Putin's objection of Chlorine without the accusations of poop on the chickens in factory farming, and processing. After all that is not the issue in the OP's post. I can concur on discussion of Russia and chlorine without making accusations. I want to avoid the feuding if at all possible, and I can do that, but I cannot control others who want to fuss.

Sooo give Russia chicken without Chlorine rinse, but I still think he is going to find another excuse. Clearly I believe if that was the case our President would make changes in developing plants to supply Russia chlorine free chicken. It would create jobs, and eliminate the argument from Putin. If Obama is not doing this, there are other reasons involved. You do not have to be an Obama supporter to know he is a smart man, or be into politics. I am not a supporter of him, so you can trust me when I say if it was possible to meet Putin's demands Obama would.

 

[CARS]

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No, you didn't say anything about my birds. I just used my flock as an example of birds per square feet. Who knows what I was trying to get at other than in my mind, my flock is as "confined" as theirs. Nevermind. It just popped up in my head and I like to work through my thoughts online

I still have never heard of people getting sick from processed birds though. Under cooked, improperly prepared, YES. Most recalls are from processed products like a Turkey Loaf or some other meat by-product. And then, the poultry in the concoction is probably the least of your worries. Preservatives, fillers, etc are going to have prolonged effects much farther out than the upset stomach you initially get.


Exporting birds... Wouldn't it just be easier to do things their way, for their birds??? I have to obey the EPA even though I may not see eye to eye with their ideas.
We told China not to use lead based paints anymore, are we in the wrong??? I agree that Russia should try to be more self-sufficient. I'm sure that any of our large producers would open a plant over there in a heartbeat! Hire the locals and avoid U.S. taxes!! Win, win for all over there. One more city of un-employment here.
Face it, I don't have the answer. It's beer O'clock in :15. Chat with you guys tomorrow.

 

[WalkingWolf]

Wouldn't it just be easier to do things their way, for their birds???

This is what I believe. Why should we, our government, care how they want their birds. I honestly believe if it was possible to make a deal with Putin on this Obama would do whatever he asked. I think this is a clear case of politics and trying to cheat the system by Putin.​

 

[Brunty_Farms]

Some background on Chlorine and why it's used... My luck is not very high... so I think I should stay clear of poultry processed in the states. Putin may be on to something as it turns out... it seems that even with chlorine... it doesn't do much. Looks to me the problem is in the processing... not the chilling. The first quote shows that Campylobacter is hardly present before evisceration... shows that fecal matter must be present to contaminate the process. It also shows how important the precision is when making that cut for eviscerations. Not to brag, but I'm nearly perfect every time, most people with experience are... however machines are not.

Samples were taken from defeath- ered carcasses before evisceration. No Campylobacter were re- covered from meat collected from the breasts or thighs, and only 2 of 10 drumstick meat samples had detectable levels of Campy- lobacter. However, 9 of 10 breast skin, 10 of 10 thigh skin, and 8 of 10 drumstick skin samples were positive for Campylobacter, with levels between 2 log10 and 3 log10 CFU/g of Campylobacter after evisceration. In a related study, Altmeyer and others collected 50 muscle samples from broilers and found no Campy- lobacter. Kotula and Pandya found higher counts on breast tissue of broiler meats than on the thigh or drumstick.

Commercially grown poultry flocks are collected on the farm, placed into crates, transported to the processing plant, and pro- cessed on the same day. Campylobacter populations have been shown to increase during transport and holding before slaughter (Stern and others 1995a). It is known that stress can cause a dis- turbance of intestinal functions and may lower the resistance of the live animal and increase spreading of intestinal bacteria. Ceca, blind pouches between the ileum and the colon of the broiler in- testinal tract, can harbor large numbers of Campylobacter

The purpose of feed withdrawal is to allow the clearance of the gastrointestinal tract and thus reduce the potential fecal contami- nation of poultry carcasses during slaughter. Feed withdrawal caused a significant increase in Campylobacter positive crop sam- ples taken from 7 of 9 houses sampled. They found 90 of 360 birds tested before feed withdrawal were positive for Campylo- bacter, whereas 254 of 359 birds tested after feed withdrawal were positive for Campylobacter.Byrd and others (1998a) re- ported that the incidence of Campylobacter contamination in crop contents may exceed that of cecal contents by as much as 37-fold in some broiler flocks, and may represent a critical pre- processing control point in reducing Campylobacter entry into the processing plant.

Many inside/outside bird washers are equipped with pressure nozzles operating between 40 and 180 psi for removing visible fecal contamination on carcasses. These wash systems use 20 to 50 ppm of chlorine as an antimi- crobial agent and generally consume 25 to 50 gallons/min (GPM) of water. The washer systems currently used for inside and outside surface cleaning of chicken carcasses have shown a limited effectiveness for Campylobacter removal (Bashor and others 2004). The primary reason is that washing with cold water, regardless of pressure and flow volume, does not lower water surface tension, an important factor in bacterial/fecal removal. Some plants use more than 9 L of water per bird for carcass washing with a minimal (0.5 log10) reduc- tion in Campylobacter levels (Bashor and others 2004). An average poultry processing plant spends $500000 to $1 million dollars per year on water for carcass washer

The Minnesota Dept. of Health data showed that levels of con- tamination of retail poultry remain high despite interventions made at the processing plant (Smith and others 1999). Stern and Line (1992) detected Campylobacter spp. in 98% of retail-pack- aged broilers sampled from grocery stores. Another study by Will- is and Murray (1997) found 69% (229/330) of raw commercial broilers were positive for C. jejuni. A study from New Zealand showed that Campylobacter could be isolated from 63% of chick- en carcasses at retail outlets (Bongkot 1997).
Kinde and others (1983) indicated that the presence of Campy- lobacter in market broilers diminishes over time during refrigerat- ed storage. Blankenship and Craven (1982) detected viable strains of C. jejuni stored in sterile ground chicken meat. The growth and extended survival observed at 37 °C with ambient atmosphere in- cubation suggest that the test strains were readily able to locate fa- vorable microaerophilic conditions for growth within the ground meat after surface inoculation.
A study in the United Kingdom estimated a population range of Campylobacter organisms on the surface of fresh chicken car- casses from 3 to 6 log10 CFU per chicken (Friedman and others 2000). Kanenaka (2000) conducted a survey from 2 large retail markets in Hawaii to characterize strains of C. jejuni isolated from clinical and poultry samples. She found that samples collected at Oahu were 83.3% positive for C. jejuni on whole chicken sam- ples and 91.7% positive on chicken parts, whereas mainland samples were 93.8% positive for whole chickens, 35.7% for chicken parts, and 56.8% for the total number of C. jejuni posi-

Chlorine. Chlorine has been used in poultry processing for more than 40 y to reduce spoilage bacteria, control the spread of pathogens, and prevent build-up of microorganisms on working surfaces and equipment such as chill tanks (Bailey and others 1986). When sodium hypochlorite is injected into water, it forms hypochlorous acid, the form of chlorine responsible for its antimi- crobial properties (Gavin and Weddig 1995). The addition of chlorine gas to processing water is easily controlled. However, most waters contain organic impurities that will react with the ini- tial amount of added chlorine reducing the amount of available chlorine to form hypochlorous acid. Chlorine added to water will continue to react and be reduced by these impurities until the im- purities have been completely oxidized. The amount of chlorine required for this purpose is known as the chlorine demand of the water.
Any chlorine present over the chlorine demand of the water ex- ists as combined residual chlorine or free residual chlorine. The concentration of chlorine where free residual chlorine exists is called the break point. Chlorine combines loosely with nitroge- nous (organic) matter to form chloramines and other chloro–nitro- gen compounds. These are forms of combined residual chlorine and exhibit relatively weak germicidal properties (Gavin and Weddig 1995).
The rate at which bacteria are killed is proportional to the con- centration of free residual chlorine. The pH of the water after the addition of chlorine determines how fast the microorganisms will be killed. The lower the pH (below 7.5), the faster the microorgan- isms are killed, and as the pH increases, the effectiveness of the chlorine decreases (Gavin and Weddig 1995). Many present-day chill tank water treatment programs operate with the cooling water pH in the range of 8.0 to 8.5 or higher. As a result, oxidizing mi- crobiocides such as chlorine are less effective. At a pH of 6.0, chlorine hydrolyzes almost completely to hypochlorous acid (HOCl), which is the most effective form of chlorine for microbio- logical control; however, at a pH of 8.5, only 8% goes to HOCl, thus requiring a much higher dosage of chlorine to control bacte- ria. Contamination of processing equipment is progressively re- duced by increasing the chlorine concentration to 70 mg/L at pH 6.5 (Bailey and others 1986). Chlorine is active against a wide range of microorganisms, with various degrees of susceptibility. At a pH of 6.0, 0.1 mg/L of free available chlorine killed 99% of C. jejuni (Blaser and others 1986). The necessary contact time varied between 5 min and 15 min at 25 °C.
Under conditions of commercial processing, not all studies in- volving chlorine have shown a reduction in carcass contamina- tion. Mead and others (1975) showed that neither the levels of contamination of bacteria nor the occurrence of cross-contamina- tion were reduced by spray-washing in chlorinated water after evisceration. Sanders and Blackshear (1971) showed little effect of chlorine in the final carcass wash unless at least 40 mg/L were used. Washing carcasses post-chilled with water containing 50 mg/L of chlorine did not reduce the proportion of Salmonella- positive samples (Kotula and others 1967). These studies empha- sized the importance of adequate contact time, which is not usu- ally achieved in a washing operation.
A study by Waldroup and others (1993) examined the modifi- cation of broiler processing procedures to include 20 ppm of chlorine through the processing line and include 1 to 5 ppm of free chlorine in the chill tank overflow. These concentrations re- sulted in a 0.2 log10 to 0.6 log10 reduction in aerobes, 0.0 log10 to 0.3 log10 reduction in coliforms, and 0.0 log10 to 0.4 log10 reduc- tion in E. coli.

http://members.ift.org/NR/rdonlyres...191DDC3EC/0/crfsfsv3n2p01050116ms20030509.pdf​

 

[Brunty_Farms]

Quote:
This is what I believe. Why should we, our government, care how they want their birds. I honestly believe if it was possible to make a deal with Putin on this Obama would do whatever he asked. I think this is a clear case of politics and trying to cheat the system by Putin.

I don't think so. Obama isn't going to jump to his demands for a little less than a million dollars worth of chicken. 600 tons of chicken is only 1.2 million pounds.... at god only know how much a pound.... what $0.50 to $0.60 cents.

I doubt any producer would change their ways for only 1.2 million pounds. McDonalds does over 5 million birds / week (fact from their site)

I think Obama is staying out of it... which he should because it's not worth getting in a dispute with him over a million bucks... keep the business here.