Internal Layers and Other Egg Issues....Will this never end?? LONG

[speckledhen]

If this helps someone understand what is happening with their hens, then it's worth posting. Sadly, Rosemary will not open her eyes nor eat or drink. She is just laying on the straw with Ivy standing over her, barely breathing. I'd be shocked if she was alive in the morning.

 

[trulyviolet]

this is so sad
i am so sorry for your losses


we lost my hen sharon, about three months ago to something like this
i assumed at first she was just broody but i couldn't break the brood

i figured it wasn't any thing contagious as the other three would have had some symptoms

i wonder if we force the winter layers to take a break somehow?
would that help a bit?

vi

 

[speckledhen]

I think any break of a few weeks would help some, though, if they are programmed to be internal layers, it may just delay the inevitable. I wish it wasn't inevitable! I think resting during their molts and taking time off to be broody will prolong their lives. But, they are not bred to be broody, they're bred to lay almost every day as long as their bodies can take it.

 

[rooster-red]

Cyn I just found this thread.
So sorry for what you are going through with your girls. Kyle is really sad that Tux is having problems, He loved her from the moment he picked her up when we visited.

Be it food or genetics, there is something wrong going on here people.

I've tried to gather data with this thread https://www.backyardchickens.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=79443

to find the common link in what is happening here.

The poultry industry would not be aware of a genetic flaw because they industry as a whole never keeps a bird for more than 2 years, so they won't be interested in solving this mystery, it is up to the backyard flock owners, and a lot of them cull their birds every 2 years, so they wouldn't notice either.

My flock is a mixture of hatchery birds, birds from breeders and birds hatched from my own stock.

I've had 1 hen die from an internal laying problem, she was from a hatchery. 2 years old.

I have 1 hen that has quit laying at all, from a hatchery. 2 years old.

I have a few that have been laying soft shelled eggs, all from hatcheries. All 2-3 years old.

I have a few mixed breeds that are still laying everyday, none are from hatcheries, all 2-3 years old.

I don't do anything really special as far as the feed goes, but I don't buy big name brand feeds.

I'm tending to believe it is a problem on the genetic side at this point, but reserve the right to change my mind.

 

[keeperofthehearth]

Thank you all for continuing to follow up on this issue.

What you said about the broodiness is what I've been telling people all along. They need the break that brooding chicks provides and they need to stop laying during molt, which most of mine didn't except for a week or two. They are bred to produce every day, even during most of their molts, and none of them ever went broody. All were very healthy, shiny feathered ladies who freeranged most of every day of their lives, so they got lots of exercise, too. None of them was ever ill before this. The only SLW girl of the three originals of that breed that I still have is the only one who ever had any issues-she had persistent bumblefoot and was on multiple antibiotics till I said "enough!" and quit giving them to her. That girl should glow in the dark from all the meds, but maybe, ironically, that is what saved her. She's still laying beautiful eggs for me, no issues.

I believe the way they are bred is what is causing this. IMO, they are genetically pre-programmed to lay like gangbusters for however long their bodies can take it, then die.

I agree. I hate to say it but I use to get very, very attatched to my girls. Still love them very much but came to the conclusion that I would be losing a number of them at a younger age than I thought so try to be realistic in the time I will get to love them.

When I started with chickens a few yrs. back I figured I would have a bunch of old hens (5yrs or older) if I took care of them correctly. NOT. I have a gold comet, Haley, who started laying at 15wks this summer. ARGGGGGG! I told her she should slow down and not grow up so fast ...... did she listen...... sigh! DH asked me what the problem was & I told him to watch, we would loose her pretty quickly. Her sisters began laying at about 18wks, a little better.​

 

[speckledhen]

Lee, you and Kyle will be happy to know that Tux seems fine now. We gave her 3 days of Pen injections to stave off any infection from retained egg material, hopefully. She is perky and running with the flock again, though, I'll be holding my breath till she lays again. I think Tux's issues are due to her molt, not necessarily meaning that she has the same issues as my hatchery stock. So, at least my Tuxy seems to be okay. Whew! You know I love my Poufy-Head Sisters!
Sorry for your troubles, too, Lee. We need to find out what is the problem here. No one should lose every bird at two years old. I have two Brahmas approaching the two year mark in January, from the same hatchery. I'll let you know if they have the same issues as my original girls.

 

[Ellie]

Just found this post.... sorry Cyn. It is heartbreaking to watch your girl failing and there is little or nothing you can do.

 

[dlhunicorn]

http://www.hyline.com/userdocs/library/Repiratory_Diseases.pdf
((reviews different respiratory conditions that can damage the reproductive tract)

http://www.filemanage.co.uk/pubs/Psittacine_birds.pdf
"(egg yolk peritonitis)...Therapy: Treatment depends on the severity of the clinical signs. Traditional medical management of chronic cases includes long-term parenteral antibiotics based on culture and sensitivity, and supportive care
as needed, including abdominocentesis to reduce abdominal pressure and relieve dyspnoea. The aetiological agent of egg-related peritonitis is often a coliform (usually Escherichia coli) but Yersinia pseudotuberculosis and staphylococci have also been associated with this condition, and anaerobes and Chlamydophila have been implicated. ..."

http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.jsp?cfile=htm/bc/205804.htm
(Egg yolk peritonitis)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Egg peritonitis is characterized by fibrin or albumen-like material with a cooked appearance among the abdominal viscera. It is a common cause of sporadic death in layers, but in some flocks may become the major cause of death and give the appearance of a contagious disease. It is diagnosed at necropsy. Peritonitis follows reverse movement of albumen and Escherichia coli bacteria from the oviduct into the abdomen. If the incidence is high, culture should be done to differentiate between Pasteurella (fowl cholera) or Salmonella infection. When hens have too many large ovarian follicles, a problem described as erratic oviposition and defective egg syndrome (EODES) is seen in broiler breeders. This condition is accompanied by a high incidence of double-yolked eggs, prolapses of the oviduct, internal ovulation, and/or internal laying that often results in egg peritonitis and mortality. EODES is prevented by avoiding light stimulation of underweight pullets too early and following body weight and lighting recommendations for each breeder strain. Overweight hens may also have a higher incidence of erratic ovulations and mortality associated with egg peritonitis. "

Cyn, it is just my opinion and god knows I am no expert, but I do not think it has anything to do with "bad " genetics (too far inbreeding or such) but more to do with a combination of things (and as you yourself have said you have had a lot of different problems with this flock > a bird may recover but when you have problems of the sort you have had and you are unable to move them to a new area then the problems tend to stack up and more and more birds will be affected.
Personally I think there is little you can do for the current flock (overlighting may have played a role in the internal laying problem you are experiencing and they will either be affected by it or not) but I do feel moving your entire flock out of the current area you have them in and reviewing your light management (for future stock) as well as choosing a different type of substrate for their ranging (the problems with all the pododermitis/bumblefoot (staph) issues you have experienced) ... one that is dry and less shady (sun/UV light on ground will help control any organism overgrowth) will be helpful with future stock.
I also do not believe that organic/non-GMO feed is going to solve your issues either... however I do believe that nutrition feed and supplementation can help you. You will have to do a lot of reading and review your current feeding /supplementation regime to see if and to what extent this may have played a role in the problems you have been experiencing. The article above mention EODES and the information (nutritional) is mainly specific to broilers and here below are a few articles:
http://www.thepoultrysite.com/articles/357/breeder-nutrition-and-chick-quality

http://www.avian.uga.edu/documents/pip/2002/0302.pdf

and here is an interesting excerpt from the following article link:
http://www.canadianpoultrymag.com/content/view/962/38/
"...Backyard flocks would generally have used ‘dual-purpose’ breeds, which had an adequate rate of lay but also had enough fleshing to make a good meal when needed. These flocks would not get larger than 200-300 birds due to problems controlling diseases like coccidiosis.

But with the introduction of high-energy feeds and linear programming for diet formulation (done by hand), the door was opened for the development of a specialized broiler industry.

Following less than 20 years later, the negative impact of selection for growth on the reproductive capabilities of the broiler parent-stock was becoming apparent. A 1972 study compared high and low juvenile body weight lines, and reported that the high weight lines produced more eggs than the low weight lines, while settable egg production was reduced. High weight line hens showed increased rates of internal ovulation and defective egg production (36 per cent vs. 2 per cent in high and low weight birds, respectively).

This relationship is typical of many full-fed broiler breeder hens, where there is difficulty adhering to the normal models of the ovulatory cycle. Studies on arrhythmic laying patterns in meat-type hens in the late 1960s and early 1970s led to the description of a condition called “erratic oviposition and defective egg syndrome” (EODES).

Hens affected by this syndrome often lay erratically throughout the entire day. A 1992 study reported that during the first few weeks of lay, hens that had been fed ad libitum from hatch laid 40.8 per cent of their eggs outside the normal laying period – the first 10 hours after dawn signal. The laying of a defective egg can often be the result of an inappropriately timed ovulation, either bumping into or forcing out the previous egg early. A period of at least 21 hours before or after another ovulation is needed for the production of a normal egg...."

ETA: Sorry to hear about Rosemarie (((hugs)))

 

[speckledhen]

All good information, Diana, however, your suggestions will not work for me. To address some of them in the spirit of working out the problem and finding a solution, the only real problems I've had with this flock have been due to bumblefoot and a few soft egg issues during times of molt. Not all the birds have had bumblefoot, but many have had it multiple times. Velvet had sour crop, but I found out what she got into to cause that. I have had a very healthy flock since I started keeping birds. Never anything respiratory.

I live on a mountain with rocks, briars, and multiple stumps and logs. They roam in the woods and jump on the stacked woodpile and scratch in the rocky dirt, etc. It's either that or stop them freeranging. I have three permanent coops that cannot be moved; tractors wont work on mountainous terrain, so they have to stay where they are. There is no grass here. It's just is not an option for most people to move their birds. If I moved them from their soft dirt pen where the ground has been worked and tilled multiple times, they'd have to be moved into rockier, thorny ground, so it would actually be much worse. There is no "less shady" area in the woods; it's why I have a hard time with a good garden here-not much direct sunlight.

As far as lighting, there was definitely no overlighting. They got extended days their first winter only with low wattage bulbs, up to 14 hours. Their second winter, they got no lighting, and they wont get any this winter. A heatlamp doesn't throw light over the entire room, especially when suspended low, almost touching, over the waterer and it does not stay on all night, only till about 7 p.m., then comes on at sunrise to take out any ice in the waterer trays.

As far as nutrition, they always have had good quality commercial feeds, yogurt and I even buy them dark leafy greens from time to time. They get pumpkin seeds and buttermilk on occasion for worm prevention. They get the best scratch on the market, 11-grain and 13% protein. Nothing I can do better there-I have to eat, too. I do not give them kitchen scraps because there aren't any. So, they aren't getting salt and sugar and too much fat, etc. I guarantee my birds are better fed than most. They on occasion get AviaCharge in one of the waterers and sometimes, organic ACV. I cannot imagine what else can be done for their nutrition. I'll listen to all suggestions, though.

Lastly, if it was anything here causative, then internal laying would not be limited to just my hatchery stock. ALL my layers would be affected. Also, almost all the info you posted is for broilers in a commercial setting...I would think they are rather different in so many ways than a freerange, dual purpose flock. Also, this problem here is age specific. It started after their second birthday for every one of mine affected.

This condition is accompanied by a high incidence of double-yolked eggs, prolapses of the oviduct, internal ovulation, and/or internal laying that often results in egg peritonitis and mortality. EODES is prevented by avoiding light stimulation of underweight pullets too early and following body weight and lighting recommendations for each breeder strain. Overweight hens may also have a higher incidence of erratic ovulations and mortality associated with egg peritonitis. "

In regard to this passage, two things here I've never had are lots of double yolked eggs. We rarely get those. And I've never had even one prolapse in my girls. All hens are their proper weight for their breed (I have weighed them) except the ones dying from laying internally and some in a hard molt, who have lost a bit of weight.

I am going to peruse all the links you gave me and look for more clues. Other than lighting and weight control, I dont see what else is in there that is applicable in my situation since they get no light and are not over or underweight (except the heavily molting ones)
I cant see how any part of my usual management is causing internal laying. I would welcome anyone who has been to my place and seen the setup to help me see anything that isn't being done properly-perhaps I'm too close to the situation?

Thanks for all the information. I'm going to go check the articles out now.​

 

[rooster-red]

I have 3 hen that I got from Cyn a little over a year ago, they've been very healthy, no signs of any problems, so I don't think it has anything to do with the enviroment at her place.

The enviroment here isn't rocky, we have lots of red clay.
My runs are shaded, but the also free range in direct sun light.