International Black Copper Marans Thread - Breeding to the SOP

[Red Banks]

I know a feeling. one of 3 cockerels who has the best comb and nice colours has a wry tail

Well don't get rid of him just ask Chooks man how to fix it.

 

[kcrandall]

There are no perfect birds, some faults are harder to eliminate than others but Chooks Man convinced me anything can be fixed eventually with his Silver Cuckoos. As a breeder the challenge is "fixing faults". It finally made sense to me. I wasn't going to buy perfect chickens, I had to make them as close to SOP as possible and I was never going to get anywhere if I kept culling every bird. My biggest regret was culling the most beautiful cockerel I have ever seen because he had a wry tail.

So true! Last year I was certain that I was going to cull Otis my BCM Rooster because he was my smallest cockerel, had lots of copper on his chest and a wry tail. Otis has great eyes, comb, copper hackle / saddle, full red shoulder, and slate / pink shanks / feet (feathered). I thought he was over colored and didn't like his tail.

After posting pictures of Otis on this forum Chooks Man (and others, RedBanks!) convinced me to keep him for a breeder. Early in this forum Chooks Man said that a BCM Rooster's color is his best asset and that a Rooster with a well-colored copper chest would add copper hackles to his daughters.

I got 3 nice pullets from Otis this spring - they are not without faults but they are an improvement over their Dam. Also, none of these pullets have a wry tail, however, I will have to watch for that fault in their future progeny. This is why it pays to keep good written records for each bird so you know what potential faults (and assets) may show up as you breed forward.

I'm happy now that I did not give up on Otis. It's very hard to get all of the best traits in one bird so we must learn to compensate for individual faults when selecting our breeders. Depending on the severity of the fault our progress may be significant or marginal but any improvement is progress in my book.

Take Care,
Keith

 

[dvoice]

I know a feeling. one of 3 cockerels who has the best comb and nice colours has a wry tail

I know what u mean. My best cockerel died and next best has an ugly comb. Hoping for a better one from my grow outs. Not looking all that promising so far at 10 weeks.

So true! Last year I was certain that I was going to cull Otis my BCM Rooster because he was my smallest cockerel, had lots of copper on his chest and a wry tail. Otis has great eyes, comb, copper hackle / saddle, full red shoulder, and slate / pink shanks / feet (feathered). I thought he was over colored and didn't like his tail.

After posting pictures of Otis on this forum Chooks Man (and others, RedBanks!) convinced me to keep him for a breeder. Early in this forum Chooks Man said that a BCM Rooster's color is his best asset and that a Rooster with a well-colored copper chest would add copper hackles to his daughters.

I got 3 nice pullets from Otis this spring - they are not without faults but they are an improvement over their Dam. Also, none of these pullets have a wry tail, however, I will have to watch for that fault in their future progeny. This is why it pays to keep good written records for each bird so you know what potential faults (and assets) may show up as you breed forward.

I'm happy now that I did not give up on Otis. It's very hard to get all of the best traits in one bird so we must learn to compensate for individual faults when selecting our breeders. Depending on the severity of the fault our progress may be significant or marginal but any improvement is progress in my book.

Take Care,
Keith

After his molt did he lose some of his chest colour?

 

[kcrandall]

I know what u mean. My best cockerel died and next best has an ugly comb. Hoping for a better one from my grow outs. Not looking all that promising so far at 10 weeks.


After his molt did he lose some of his chest colour?

Funny, you ask. Otis is about halfway through his first adult molt and he has lost a lot of his copper chest feathers. When he was a juvenile he had about 35% copper coverage and now he has about 15%. It will be interesting to see if the copper color comes back or stays like it is now. I prefer my Roosters have a little copper on their chest - it's good for his future daughters.

Take Care,
Keith

 

[Red Banks]

So true! Last year I was certain that I was going to cull Otis my BCM Rooster because he was my smallest cockerel, had lots of copper on his chest and a wry tail. Otis has great eyes, comb, copper hackle / saddle, full red shoulder, and slate / pink shanks / feet (feathered). I thought he was over colored and didn't like his tail.

After posting pictures of Otis on this forum Chooks Man (and others, RedBanks!) convinced me to keep him for a breeder. Early in this forum Chooks Man said that a BCM Rooster's color is his best asset and that a Rooster with a well-colored copper chest would add copper hackles to his daughters.

I got 3 nice pullets from Otis this spring - they are not without faults but they are an improvement over their Dam. Also, none of these pullets have a wry tail, however, I will have to watch for that fault in their future progeny. This is why it pays to keep good written records for each bird so you know what potential faults (and assets) may show up as you breed forward.

I'm happy now that I did not give up on Otis. It's very hard to get all of the best traits in one bird so we must learn to compensate for individual faults when selecting our breeders. Depending on the severity of the fault our progress may be significant or marginal but any improvement is progress in my book.

Take Care,
Keith

I love Otis!

 

[KF0002]

Thank you Kayla, I hope he is half as nice as the cockerel of yours. I meant to write in my post that I brought him in the kitchen because you said that is the best way to get good pics! I know you like to put them on the kitchen counter, I just didn't have one free of clutter!

Yep I swear by my kitchen counter/table method. lol

I only have one pure FRF cockerel left out of my original pair unfortunately. He is too young to tell much about, but I do know he is going to be too light as what copper coloring he has right now is looking straw colored. He also has a couple twisted tail feathers, but I'm hoping they come back in straight as he molts out of his "baby" feathers. And he has a high looking tail, of course. He is healthy and vigorous, so I will let him stick around to watch him grow. I still have 2 pure FRF pullets left so I may put him over one of them if he is decent looking when he matures, and may mate him back to his mother in an attempt to lock in her dark egg genes.

Thank you for your comment on my FRF x LA cockerel. I got lucky with him, he was my last prayer for a cockerel with decent type/tail angle out of my grow outs from this year. As soon as he matures a little more and starts performing his duties instead of letting all the girls bully him (which is crazy because he is a lot bigger than they are), I will pen him up. I want to let him free range as long as possible because he will be very busy in the upcoming months. I will move him every day (maybe every other day) between 3 pens so he can keep the 3 single mated pullets fertilized. I may even mate him to my original FRF hen. She's no Gabby, but her eggs are my darkest and that would be a shame to let go to waste.

Sorry to ramble! When I get to talking about chickens I can't hold it back.

 

[KF0002]

it is just another fault like the rest .bad one but can be bred out as long as the Rooster has a pure red Earlobes .
marans chooks are a result of crossing the old French hens ( European breed white earlobes ) with a Asian Roosters ( Red Earlobe) . the breeders selected for the red earlobe as a dominant .
this fault will always show up as the result of the low of genetic ( Atavistic Return of the recessive genes ).
I m working with this problem in one of my own Birchen line , almost bred it out after 4 generation . still show up ,only few in this last generation F4 .
Never bred from the Rooster with a white earlobe .
you can breed from the pullet if they are great type and lay dark egg . or you are working with a specific line you don t want to add any thing to it.
you can do it if your back is against a wall .

a lot culling for about 2 or 3 generation .and always use a Rooster with a RED EARLOBE . make sure other wise you are worsting your time .

chooks man

Thank you for explaining this, Chooksman. I will add the note about only using a male with a pure red earlobe to my collection of advice from you.

 

[Chooks man]

Well don't get rid of him just ask Chooks man how to fix it.

to correct any fault ,we need to breed it to the opposite ,let say bad comb bred to the good comb ,etc.............
and some time we have to breed back the progeny the there Sire or Dam with a good trait to reinforce the quality .

good practice in breeding the chooks with fault is ;
1) mate the chook with a specific fault you are trying to breed out or to correct it to another chooks who is good in that area . you ll get mix progeny as F1 .
2) mate the best F1 between them selves to get the F2 = this generation is the best genetic expression . any things does not show up in this generation ( F2 if the number is large enough) than is not there .
3) select the one without the original fault and breed them back to there original Sire ( Grand father) or the original Dam ( grand mama hen ) to reinforce the trait .this generation is called BC1 ( the first back cross)
this BC1 will not show the original fault . it is bred out of it .

it is very important to mate the F1 between them selves to let the genes recombine differently ( same genes but different combination , different looking chooks )
if we don t do that and breed the F1 back to they Sire or Dam than we are introducing the fault to the faultless chooks . we are not breeding it out .will show up in the future generation 100% .

chooks man

 

[KF0002]

I know a feeling. one of 3 cockerels who has the best comb and nice colours has a wry tail

I'm with Redbanks, don't cull him yet. I have some experience with wry looking tails but it may not be the same with Marans. We have a line of gamefowl that never fails to produce a male that looks like he is wry tailed when he is young. It drives me crazy! My husband says they are too lazy when they are young to hold their tail up right. But when they mature, their tails are just as nice and straight as they can be. They are one of our nicest lines, gorgeous birds.. but you would never know it if you saw a male when he was young with his wry floppy tail. Game chickens do have longer tails than Marans, so this may not apply but it may be worth hanging on to him to see if it persists.

 

[KF0002]

to correct any fault ,we need to breed it to the opposite ,let say bad comb bred to the good comb ,etc.............
and some time we have to breed back the progeny the there Sire or Dam with a good trait to reinforce the quality .

good practice in breeding the chooks with fault is ;
1) mate the chook with a specific fault you are trying to breed out or to correct it to another chooks who is good in that area . you ll get mix progeny as F1 .
2) mate the best F1 between them selves to get the F2 = this generation is the best genetic expression . any things does not show up in this generation ( F2 if the number is large enough) than is not there .
3) select the one without the original fault and breed them back to there original Sire ( Grand father) or the original Dam ( grand mama hen ) to reinforce the trait .this generation is called BC1 ( the first back cross)
this BC1 will not show the original fault . it is bred out of it .

it is very important to mate the F1 between them selves to let the genes recombine differently ( same genes but different combination , different looking chooks )
if we don t do that and breed the F1 back to they Sire or Dam than we are introducing the fault to the faultless chooks . we are not breeding it out .will show up in the future generation 100% .

chooks man

Great advice! I swear I need to print all this out and make a binder with all this info!