Is it wise to attempt a 1h45 trip to the vet ?

[ManueB]

Thanks for all the messages. I'm feeling less guilty to know that some of you were also faced with these hard choices that all feel wrong.
I don't mind if the thread derails , any insight I and any of you can get from that ugly experience makes it less meaningless.

@ManueB It is very difficult to make a decision like this. I would recommend that you discuss it openly and frankly with your partner. If there is any good news it does feel like there is no wrong decision here whatever the outcome.

From my experience with hens bred to be heavy layers, production breeds, it is the rare hen that lives to 3 years old. Laying problems usually claim them way before their time. As others have said, chickens are experts at hiding illness. The combination has led you to this point. It is no failing of yours. Please do not blame yourself.

At this point, make the best decision you can make, prepare yourself as best you can for any outcome, and rest well knowing you have done all that anyone could have done for her.

I'm not blaming myself for her condition. I've read enough by now on BYC and elsewhere to understand how far battery hens and high production breed's reproductive systems have been messed up with. I'm however having a difficult time with the decision I made of taking her to the vet. In her condition it was an ordeal, they had to put her for hours on oxygen before attempting the punction. But regrets won't help her and we say in french it's walking the path that makes the path.

We've discussed it with my partner and we're inclined to try the operation but we're not decided yet. I feel that the worse stress for her was the transport and also being alone at the clinic now. If we take her back home to die in peace, it feels to me like all this stress she went through will have been for nothing. If she dies during the operation she will be asleep. The worse thing that could happen would be having her die after being awake at the clinic. This a risk even now, they are not saying she is stabilized.

If you go the treatment route, please ask/insist the vet prescribe a heavy duty antibiotic like enrofloxacin. Most avian vets will no longer prescribe it, but you can ask and let them know you’d be willing to sign something saying you will not consume her or her eggs.

They already have her on amoxicillin and metacam for pain. The use of antibiotic is far more restricted here than in the us.

MJ, Kiki has been saying this for years, and in all honesty, it used to annoy me to some degree (sorry, Kiki.) However, I believe she is right, especially for confined birds (though @ManueB lets them mostly free range, right?)

My understanding is that the delicate nutritional balance gets interrupted with treats. This can lead to soft eggshells, obesity, etc. I already know from experience how easy it is for chickens to get too fat. I have been absolutely shocked about the fatty livers in my flock, even though I thought I was giving minimal treats. I think it’s more about the combination of them being confined, so not getting enough exercise, and having unlimited access to feed, even though I do free range them every day after work and almost all day most weekend days. I guess I’m sort of preaching to the choir with you, as you have extensive experience with liver disease in chickens.

Anyway, back to diet and reproductive health. I think it mostly comes down to too much body fat. If they have too much fat, it can be more difficult for them to pass eggs, which can lead to internal laying, reverse peristalsis, and other issues. I am sorry I do not have any good scientific articles to quote on this at the moment, but I feel pretty confident that I read it. Having said that, I do think there might be more to it. I don’t understand how I can see other friends on BYC give way, way, way more treats than I do, but their chickens don’t seem to suffer from fatty liver. Perhaps there’s an environmental component, as well.

In this particular case, I believe it’s more due to her being an ex batt, but who knows for sure.

Who is it who loves to search articles for us? Is it @RoyalChick? @bgmathteach
? I don’t have the time right now, but would like to understand it all better myself.

What is true is that Caramel is a big hen, she even used to be fat before she was sick in May and stopped eating for ten days. I think it's just her metabolism like some people have high cholesterol. The vet didn't mention this as a cause of reproductive disease but she warned me that big hens suffered way more from the heat.
My birds are outside all day and the "treats" they get come only from what's in our garden in season, only a handful for 8 birds three to four times a week. I am more concerned about the quality of the commercial feed I'm giving them. We switched to all flocks two months ago when the chicks hatched and I've noticed not all the hens will eat egg shells, though Caramel did. None eat oyster shells. I'm switching back to a higher calcium level feed.

 

[RoyalChick]

Manue, so sorry.

Having seen how you keep your chickens I am in no doubt this is all down to the horrible breeding that these ex-batts and high production breeds have and nothing to do with your husbandry practices.
Do not second guess the decision to take her to the vet - there were many unhappy ‘what if’s’ to keeping her at home and you followed your heart with deep consideration.
Nobody can tell you what decision to make now but she sounds like she is in good hands with your vet.

 

[Ponypoor]

Salut Manue,

I have been reading all the comments and I am in agreement with the statement you made regarding her being anesthetized and not in any pain during her surgery. You are correct that if she were to die during the surgery she would be in no pain.

The decision is then one of the cost of the surgery for you, and then the post operative quality of life for the hen.

I had a similar decision with colicky horse, what is the cost? (At that time well over $12,000), and quality of life for the horse (elderly horse ). It was excruciating for me to make a decision as I had birthed this creature. (Sorry can’t type this).

Whatever your decision know that it will be the RIGHT one. And that all of us support you.

Kelly

 

[BY Bob]

This thread is derailing

I agree. Can we maintain focus on Emmanuelle's current situation and support her. There is time for advice and nutritional discussion afterwards.

I know that we all have a thirst for knowledge and want to be the best chicken keepers we can but in times like this it seems like it might be best to stay focused on the difficult situation at hand. The nutrition conversation could easily be had afterwards.

 

[BY Bob]

I agree. Can we maintain focus on Emmanuelle's current situation and support her. There is time for advice and nutritional discussion afterwards.

I know that we all have a thirst for knowledge and want to be the best chicken keepers we can but in times like this it seems like it might be best to stay focused on the difficult situation at hand. The nutrition conversation could easily be had afterwards.

@ManueB I apologize for this post. I should have read ahead.

My payment. Here are my original production layers.

 

[Kiki]

Kiki, I'm a little unsure about the connection between diet and reproductive health. Would you have time to unpack that connection a little for me?

Yes. Cliff notes.
An unbalanced diet can lead to a bird becoming overweight before you even notice.
Overweightness itself can cause these issues.
Read all of these.
https://www.merckvetmanual.com/poultry/disorders-of-the-reproductive-system#

Pay me attention to this being mentioned:

Also remember it is extremely difficult to tell if a bird is overweight by looking at it.
It is an extremely small amount.

 

[Ponypoor]

@ManueB I apologize for this post. I should have read ahead.

My payment. Here are my original production layers.

View attachment 3200227

I remember these lovelies

 

[MaryJanet]

Yes. Cliff notes.
An unbalanced diet can lead to a bird becoming overweight before you even notice.
Overweightness itself can cause these issues.
Read all of these.
https://www.merckvetmanual.com/poultry/disorders-of-the-reproductive-system#

Pay me attention to this being mentioned:
View attachment 3200726



Also remember it is extremely difficult to tell if a bird is overweight by looking at it.
It is an extremely small amount.

Thank you.

 

[ChicoryBlue]

Thanks for all the messages. I'm feeling less guilty to know that some of you were also faced with these hard choices that all feel wrong.
I don't mind if the thread derails , any insight I and any of you can get from that ugly experience makes it less meaningless.

I'm not blaming myself for her condition. I've read enough by now on BYC and elsewhere to understand how far battery hens and high production breed's reproductive systems have been messed up with. I'm however having a difficult time with the decision I made of taking her to the vet. In her condition it was an ordeal, they had to put her for hours on oxygen before attempting the punction. But regrets won't help her and we say in french it's walking the path that makes the path.

We've discussed it with my partner and we're inclined to try the operation but we're not decided yet. I feel that the worse stress for her was the transport and also being alone at the clinic now. If we take her back home to die in peace, it feels to me like all this stress she went through will have been for nothing. If she dies during the operation she will be asleep. The worse thing that could happen would be having her die after being awake at the clinic. This a risk even now, they are not saying she is stabilized.


They already have her on amoxicillin and metacam for pain. The use of antibiotic is far more restricted here than in the us.

What is true is that Caramel is a big hen, she even used to be fat before she was sick in May and stopped eating for ten days. I think it's just her metabolism like some people have high cholesterol. The vet didn't mention this as a cause of reproductive disease but she warned me that big hens suffered way more from the heat.
My birds are outside all day and the "treats" they get come only from what's in our garden in season, only a handful for 8 birds three to four times a week. I am more concerned about the quality of the commercial feed I'm giving them. We switched to all flocks two months ago when the chicks hatched and I've noticed not all the hens will eat egg shells, though Caramel did. None eat oyster shells. I'm switching back to a higher calcium level feed.

If you bring her a friend from the flock to be with her during her stay (if that's allowed), would that be helpful for her stress at the vet's?

 

[micstrachan]

Thanks Michelle.

So the wrong nutrients causes poor shells and being overweight effects the reproductive process. And a belly full of treats doesn't have room for healthy food.

Have I caught on to the main points?

Yes, that is my understanding.