Is there such a thing as Brown Sex Link? (using Barring gene)

[halefamily_flock]

A couple of months ago, I hatched Black Sex link chicks from my Golden Spangled Appenzeller Spitzhauben rooster x Dominique hen. It's my understanding they were black as chicks because then hen was Extended Black (E), which is dominant over the rooster's Birchen (ER).

In a few days, I'll *hopefully* be hatching more sex-linked chicks, using the same Spitz roosters but with hens that are Duckwing (e+). One hen is Cream Legbar and the other is an Olive Egger (Legbar x Welsummer cross). Any guesses what the chick down will look like? I've seen lots of documentation on Black Sex Links, but haven't found much on sex linked chicks, produced with a barred female that isn't black under her barring.

Here are the potential daddy-roos


And the hens


Their eggs are easy to differentiate (blue vs. olive) but I'm not sure if I'll be able to keep track of which chick hatches from which, unless there is some sort of differentiation in the down color (which seems unlikely). Here's what the parents looked like as chicks. I'm sure about the Spitz, since they looked so different from the others. I had a hard time keeping the Legbar, Olive Egger and Welsummer females straight. Here's my best guess...

As I impatiently wait for hatch day December 1, I'm trying to imagine what they're going to look like. One wild card is that I originally paired the Legbar hen with a Legbar roo, but she kept escaping the breeding pen so I decided to leave her out with the Spitz roos instead. I waited a few days (almost a week) to start collecting from her and know she got some action with the Spitz boys in that time, but there's a small chance this fella could be one of her (2) egg's baby daddy. The olive egger is much more certain (although not 100%) to have a Spitz daddy for all of her eggs (4). She had almost 2 weeks of exclusivity with Spitz roos.


I also have 4 olive eggs from another Olive Egger in the same incubator, who was with the Legbar the whole time. I'm wondering whether they will inherit any auto-sexing. I don't know the chances I can keep the newly hatched chicks straight long enough to mark which egg they came from, but I couldn't choose just one genetics experiment

Tagging @NatJ @MysteryChicken @RoostersAreAwesome and @Amer for your thoughts--- I've seen you all provide lots of good genetics advice on other posts

 

[NatJ]

I hatched Black Sex link chicks from my Golden Spangled Appenzeller Spitzhauben rooster x Dominique hen. It's my understanding they were black as chicks because then hen was Extended Black (E), which is dominant over the rooster's Birchen (ER).

That sounds right to me!

Any guesses what the chick down will look like? I've seen lots of documentation on Black Sex Links, but haven't found much on sex linked chicks, produced with a barred female that isn't black under her barring.

Chick down: probably Birchen, like the Spitzhauben, because that's considered dominant over e+ wild-type.
The hens you name should all be e+ (Legbar & Welsummer are, so a Legbar/Welsummer cross would also be)

I think the male chicks should have a yellow or white head spot from the barring, no matter what color the rest of their down is.

For the eggs that could possibly produce pure Legbar chicks:
--Legbar male should be easy to recognize
--Legbar female could look like sexlink male, and you'd have to wait to sort those out when the chicks get older

(All of these answers are based on what I have read, not on personal experience. So if anyone pops in with personal experience, trust them instead )

 

[RoostersAreAwesome]

I found some examples of legbar x spitzhaubens that might interest you- https://www.backyardchickens.com/threads/cream-legbar-hybrid-thread.825092/post-15500124
https://www.backyardchickens.com/threads/best-guesses-for-crossbred-rooster.1076127/
https://www.google.com/amp/s/bitchinchickens.com/2020/08/20/autosexing-chickens/amp/.
However, these crosses have the silver gene, which your chicks will not.

Here’s some hamburg x legbar crosses, which will be similar in coloring but with other traits that are different- https://www.backyardchickens.com/threads/cream-legbar-hybrid-thread.825092/post-15698065.

That sounds right to me!



Chick down: probably Birchen, like the Spitzhauben, because that's considered dominant over e+ wild-type.
The hens you name should all be e+ (Legbar & Welsummer are, so a Legbar/Welsummer cross would also be)

I think the male chicks should have a yellow or white head spot from the barring, no matter what color the rest of their down is.

For the eggs that could possibly produce pure Legbar chicks:
--Legbar male should be easy to recognize
--Legbar female could look like sexlink male, and you'd have to wait to sort those out when the chicks get older

(All of these answers are based on what I have read, not on personal experience. So if anyone pops in with personal experience, trust them instead )

Wouldn’t the purebred legbar females have a clearer, more duckwing-like pattern than the crossbred males?

 

[MysteryChicken]

That sounds right to me!



Chick down: probably Birchen, like the Spitzhauben, because that's considered dominant over e+ wild-type.
The hens you name should all be e+ (Legbar & Welsummer are, so a Legbar/Welsummer cross would also be)

I think the male chicks should have a yellow or white head spot from the barring, no matter what color the rest of their down is.

For the eggs that could possibly produce pure Legbar chicks:
--Legbar male should be easy to recognize
--Legbar female could look like sexlink male, and you'd have to wait to sort those out when the chicks get older

(All of these answers are based on what I have read, not on personal experience. So if anyone pops in with personal experience, trust them instead )

I agree with this.

 

[halefamily_flock]

I found some examples of legbar x spitzhaubens that might interest you- https://www.backyardchickens.com/threads/cream-legbar-hybrid-thread.825092/post-15500124

Thanks for sending. Even though my Spitz roosters are gold, I got very similar looking black sex links from my Spitz-Dominique crosses a few months ago. Here is what they looked like at what's probably around the same age as the link you sent. For that cross, it has been most interesting to see the combs produced on the males. I hadn't been able to find anything that showed photos of what a Rose Comb x Horned Comb looked like because they're both dominant and were expected to combine somehow.




I sold one of the above males. Here are the other 2 a couple weeks older
Pink band on left & purple band on right.

Wouldn’t the purebred legbar females have a clearer, more duckwing-like pattern than the crossbred males?

The purebred Legbars should be auto sexing. If you look back at my original post, in the group chick photo, the male legbars have a pink marker dot on their head. There's one immediately to the right of the chick facing forward in the center, and one all the way to the left. The males were noticeably lighter in color overall as chicks.

 

[halefamily_flock]

Chick down: probably Birchen, like the Spitzhauben, because that's considered dominant over e+ wild-type.

Yes. That makes sense. So I should be able to pretty easily tell the Spitz crosses from the Legbar x Olive Egger because Legbar x OE will remain e+/e+ and could possibly auto-sex? (since Legbar & Welsummer both autosex).

However, I might never be able to tell, by looking, which chicks belong to which of the Spitz crosses. I wonder if it's worth the trouble of trying to separate them in the incubator when I go into lockdown tomorrow?

 

[RoostersAreAwesome]

Thanks for sending. Even though my Spitz roosters are gold, I got very similar looking black sex links from my Spitz-Dominique crosses a few months ago. Here is what they looked like at what's probably around the same age as the link you sent. For that cross, it has been most interesting to see the combs produced on the males. I hadn't been able to find anything that showed photos of what a Rose Comb x Horned Comb looked like because they're both dominant and were expected to combine somehow.


View attachment 2427556View attachment 2427561View attachment 2427559

I sold one of the above males. Here are the other 2 a couple weeks older
Pink band on left & purple band on right.
View attachment 2427574View attachment 2427576



The purebred Legbars should be auto sexing. If you look back at my original post, in the group chick photo, the male legbars have a pink marker dot on their head. There's one immediately to the right of the chick facing forward in the center, and one all the way to the left. The males were noticeably lighter in color overall as chicks.

The comb of the first barred cockerel pictured is probably what the spitz x legbars’ combs will look like (single comb split in half at the back). One of your dominiques must carry a single comb gene in order for her offspring to show a comb like that.


I know that. I was asking NatJ if they thought that the spitz x legbar male chicks would have a slightly different pattern than the pure legbar female chicks due to their crossbred genetics.

 

[halefamily_flock]

The comb of the first barred cockerel pictured is probably what the spitz x legbars’ combs will look like (single comb split in half at the back). One of your dominiques must carry a single comb gene in order for her offspring to show a comb like that.

I thought horned was dominant over single. I assumed this round of Spitz crosses would end up looking like Spitz combs, since they were only competing with single. It will be interesting to see!

 

[NatJ]

I was asking NatJ if they thought that the spitz x legbar male chicks would have a slightly different pattern than the pure legbar female chicks due to their crossbred genetics.

Yes, I agree.
I had been so busy thinking about barring that I forgot the not-barred was also not-e+
There's just so many genes to keep straight at once

 

[halefamily_flock]

Thank you @NatJ @RoostersAreAwesome and @MysteryChicken for the replies! Now that I can better imagine what the chicks should look like, I decided to split the incubator in half to be sure I could keep track of which chicks hatch out of which eggs.

Most importantly, I wanted to separate the blue eggs up top (Spitz x Legbar) and the darker green eggs below (Spitz x OE) since they should all be sex-linked Birchen (ER). The pink eggs on top are Legbar x Dominique, so they should all be black barred (E), and the lighter green eggs on bottom are Legbar x OE, so they should all be e+ barred. So, even with too many experiments in the same incubator, I think I'll be able to keep track of which chick hatched from which egg.

(I think I kept all of that straight, but please let me know if any of my assumptions are incorrect.)

I'll post chick photos in a few days (fingers crossed)