- Thread starter
- #21
Not only was he taking too long, he was shooing me away from her and stopping to talk to Ken every few seconds. Every time I opened my mouth, he scolded me. I am NEVER letting that guy back on this property.
Isn't a farriers job to work with horses????
- Thread starter debilorrah
- Start date
Quote:
Uh, no. It's the owner's job to train the horse to stand. PERIOD. If the horse needs a trainer or training then someone else needs to do that or be paid to take that time. Some farriers are more talented with working with horses, some less, but they are not being paid to train anyone's horses. They are being paid a set rate to do a farrier's job. Unless they start charging by the hour. It's all right and fine in many cases to have to fuss for a few minutes with a horse, but so many people go waaaaay overboard and expect farriers to catch horses out of the field, hobble them, spend hours getting a set of shoes on, whatever have you, that it gets to the point of ridiculous. Maybe this one horse was not one of these cases, but you have to see where this guy is coming from. It's not his horse and he (or she) doesn't live with it every day, and no one wants to get hurt unless the owner is planning on paying them workmen's comp.
Uh, no. It's the owner's job to train the horse to stand. PERIOD. If the horse needs a trainer or training then someone else needs to do that or be paid to take that time. Some farriers are more talented with working with horses, some less, but they are not being paid to train anyone's horses. They are being paid a set rate to do a farrier's job. Unless they start charging by the hour. It's all right and fine in many cases to have to fuss for a few minutes with a horse, but so many people go waaaaay overboard and expect farriers to catch horses out of the field, hobble them, spend hours getting a set of shoes on, whatever have you, that it gets to the point of ridiculous. Maybe this one horse was not one of these cases, but you have to see where this guy is coming from. It's not his horse and he (or she) doesn't live with it every day, and no one wants to get hurt unless the owner is planning on paying them workmen's comp.
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- Thread starter
- #24
The reasoning here is very circular to me. We WANT to train the horses, but Duchess must be shod before we can ride her. Anyone have a solution around THAT one??
We know Duke is a problem and do not expect anyone to have to deal with him but me, and occasionally Ken when Duke is in a good mood.
We know Duke is a problem and do not expect anyone to have to deal with him but me, and occasionally Ken when Duke is in a good mood.
- Thread starter
- #25
Quote:
Uh, no. It's the owner's job to train the horse to stand. PERIOD. If the horse needs a trainer or training then someone else needs to do that or be paid to take that time. Some farriers are more talented with working with horses, some less, but they are not being paid to train anyone's horses. They are being paid a set rate to do a farrier's job. Unless they start charging by the hour. It's all right and fine in many cases to have to fuss for a few minutes with a horse, but so many people go waaaaay overboard and expect farriers to catch horses out of the field, hobble them, spend hours getting a set of shoes on, whatever have you, that it gets to the point of ridiculous. Maybe this one horse was not one of these cases, but you have to see where this guy is coming from. It's not his horse and he (or she) doesn't live with it every day, and no one wants to get hurt unless the owner is planning on paying them workmen's comp.
He threw in the towel after 10 minutes. IF he had let me hold her lead, it would have been an easy job. He was a moron.
Uh, no. It's the owner's job to train the horse to stand. PERIOD. If the horse needs a trainer or training then someone else needs to do that or be paid to take that time. Some farriers are more talented with working with horses, some less, but they are not being paid to train anyone's horses. They are being paid a set rate to do a farrier's job. Unless they start charging by the hour. It's all right and fine in many cases to have to fuss for a few minutes with a horse, but so many people go waaaaay overboard and expect farriers to catch horses out of the field, hobble them, spend hours getting a set of shoes on, whatever have you, that it gets to the point of ridiculous. Maybe this one horse was not one of these cases, but you have to see where this guy is coming from. It's not his horse and he (or she) doesn't live with it every day, and no one wants to get hurt unless the owner is planning on paying them workmen's comp.
He threw in the towel after 10 minutes. IF he had let me hold her lead, it would have been an easy job. He was a moron.
Errrr.. I dont see how all the training talk is coming in on your particular issue, Deb. The guy sounds like a real creep, and even sexist, from what you just posted, and many horses are good judges of character. When it appears Duke needs a trim, talk to your vet.. have him come out in conjunction with your new (hopefully wonderful) farrier, and sedate him. If done properly, he shouldn't be any trouble. I'm sure you knew all this already... and this issue obviously had nothing to do with training (the horses, that is). On the training... There is no need for an owner to send a horse off to a costly trainer just for ground issues. Any owner with the time and patience to work on ground manners can get great results and a better relationship with their horse. Wish I lived closer to you, hehe, I would be over every afternoon
Errr... I'm sure you already have taken care of it, but just in case... you didn't let that one shoe stay on the mare, did you? Not good for balance and her other problem foot and all that.... So if needed you can just pry those nails out and the shoe off.
Errr... I'm sure you already have taken care of it, but just in case... you didn't let that one shoe stay on the mare, did you? Not good for balance and her other problem foot and all that.... So if needed you can just pry those nails out and the shoe off.
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- Thread starter
- #28
Quote:
ARGH we have not taken it off yet. I guess we need to get it off. See sig line.
ARGH we have not taken it off yet. I guess we need to get it off. See sig line.
So if needed you can just pry those nails out and the shoe off.
Errr...
it's not quite that simple. The nail comes all the way through the hoof and gets crimped on the top side. If you just pry the shoe off, you will cause a LOT of damage to the hoof wall. You need to lift the crimp just enough that you can grasp it with a good pair of nippers and nip that sucker off. (Most farriers do this so often that they have a special tool for it that avoids damaging the wall every time they reset a shoe.) Depending on the farrier, there will be 2-4 nails crimped on each side of the hoof. Once the crimp is gone, then you can pull the shoe off with relatively little damage to the hoof wall.
Just trying to be helpful here.
Rusty
edited to add:
Errr...
Just trying to be helpful here.
Rusty
edited to add:
debiraymond wrote:
The reasoning here is very circular to me. We WANT to train the horses, but Duchess must be shod before we can ride her. Anyone have a solution around THAT one??
We know Duke is a problem and do not expect anyone to have to deal with him but me, and occasionally Ken when Duke is in a good mood.
Debi, every time you handle a horse, you are "training" him. The key is to always handle correctly so you don't have to keep undoing the things you (or somebody else) has inadvertently taught him. As an example, I am currently teaching everyone in the barn to ground tie. This really is not some complicated procedure. It just means that every day, I put a lead rope on the horse, walk him out of his stall, ask him to square up (which he already knows how to do). Then I tell him to stand and I drop the lead rope. When he moves or fidgets, I bring him back to square and drop the rope again as I say "Stand, son." Then I go on with my brushing or currying or combing. At first we probably did this a dozen times in the course of a session. Now, after a week of doing it, I have to correct maybe once or twice. Eventually we will get rock solid on the exercise. Then I will vary where we do it and what -- if anything -- I am doing to distract him. Eventually I will be able to drop that rope anywhere at anytime and he will stay exactly where I left him. (It's really no different than the long stay exercise for dogs.)
With your guys, to train for feet, basically just pick them up every day. Reward them with lots of "Good boy"s and an occasional treat. Eventually it will become so natural, they won't give it a second thought. Then you add the holding of the leg between your knees like a farrier does and even pop their soles lightly to simulate the nailing of the shoe. Repeat these things often enough and it becomes second nature to the horse to do them and have them done.
All in the world "ground training" is is repeating stuff so often that it becomes a natural part of the horse's routine that he doesn't bother to question anymore. All it takes is time, persistence, and consistency.
HTH
(edited to correct "pry" to "pull" because prying will damage the rim of the hoof. Sometimes when I'm trying to be helpful I am not careful enough with my word choices. This was one of those times.)
The reasoning here is very circular to me. We WANT to train the horses, but Duchess must be shod before we can ride her. Anyone have a solution around THAT one??
We know Duke is a problem and do not expect anyone to have to deal with him but me, and occasionally Ken when Duke is in a good mood.
Debi, every time you handle a horse, you are "training" him. The key is to always handle correctly so you don't have to keep undoing the things you (or somebody else) has inadvertently taught him. As an example, I am currently teaching everyone in the barn to ground tie. This really is not some complicated procedure. It just means that every day, I put a lead rope on the horse, walk him out of his stall, ask him to square up (which he already knows how to do). Then I tell him to stand and I drop the lead rope. When he moves or fidgets, I bring him back to square and drop the rope again as I say "Stand, son." Then I go on with my brushing or currying or combing. At first we probably did this a dozen times in the course of a session. Now, after a week of doing it, I have to correct maybe once or twice. Eventually we will get rock solid on the exercise. Then I will vary where we do it and what -- if anything -- I am doing to distract him. Eventually I will be able to drop that rope anywhere at anytime and he will stay exactly where I left him. (It's really no different than the long stay exercise for dogs.)
With your guys, to train for feet, basically just pick them up every day. Reward them with lots of "Good boy"s and an occasional treat. Eventually it will become so natural, they won't give it a second thought. Then you add the holding of the leg between your knees like a farrier does and even pop their soles lightly to simulate the nailing of the shoe. Repeat these things often enough and it becomes second nature to the horse to do them and have them done.
All in the world "ground training" is is repeating stuff so often that it becomes a natural part of the horse's routine that he doesn't bother to question anymore. All it takes is time, persistence, and consistency.
HTH
(edited to correct "pry" to "pull" because prying will damage the rim of the hoof. Sometimes when I'm trying to be helpful I am not careful enough with my word choices. This was one of those times.)
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- Jul 26, 2010
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The reasoning here is very circular to me. We WANT to train the horses, but Duchess must be shod before we can ride her. Anyone have a solution around THAT one??
Your horses need to be trained by you or someone you pay to train them, to stand for the farrier. There is no circular reasoning with this.
If your horse needs to be shod to ride it, then it has to be taught to stand still to be shod. And if you haven't done that, that's your fault, not the farrier's. Any farrier is perfectly within his rights to walk out if a horse is going to jeopardize his ability to get to the next call in one piece or on time. If I got only one shoe on in ten minutes I'd leave too.
MANY farriers will not train on horses because owners often complain, 'Don't be mean to Precious!'
In fact, there is every possibility that YOU were the one being unreasonable. Since I wasn't there, I put it 50-50. Could have been the farrier at fault, and could have been you.
They're put in the impossible position of risking their own physical safety because the horse is moving all over the place and is disobedient, they can't lift a finger to correct the horse without the owner pitching a fit.
"He was a moron"
Most likely, some 'helpful' person has already informed the farrier that you're saying this on line. You may have a difficult time getting other farriers in, if word gets around. As for the 'sexist' remark, some people talk like that when they get pushed to it. I've never had a farrier treat me badly when I have treated them with respect. If this guy really IS some sort of incompetent idiot, then what was it about him that caused you to select him? Maybe use different criteria. Look for experienced, skilled farriers that are in demand in your area. They cost more, but they are worth it.
I think it's important to recognize that customers put farriers in very bad positions. If the farrier is not allowed to correct the horse's behavior, he can't shoe the horse, he can't even guarantee his own safety. In his position what the horse does can harm him a whole lot more than a person holding the horse. Customers often put the farrier in impossibly situations and then are surprised when they walk out. But they don't understand, literally, the position the farrier is in.
I understand you are very upset with your vet and now your farrier, and have been through a lot recently. However, the bottom line is that it sounds like neither the mare nor Duke are properly trained for the farrier; it also sounds as if they are not getting trimmed or trimmed/reset frequently, which can cause difficulties with hooves and soundness down the road. This is of the utmost importance and is far, far more important than your anger at the farrier.
I think it's important to calm down and stop being angry at the farrier, no matter how much support you get for doing so here, and see to it that the horses are all very well trained to stand for the farrier. No matter who does your horses, they need to STAND STILL - for an extended period of time, in awkward positions, STILL. WITHOUT MOVING.
You need to think about it from the point of view of the horse's welfare, not yiour anger. On this occasion, she was rewarded for behaving badly. Her behavior may even escalate the next time, making the next farrier's job even harder.
Your horses ALL, including Duke, need to be trained as quickly as possible, so that they can have their feet handled and worked on, WITHOUT sedation, in any situation. Sedation is useful in some situations but you can never guarantee you will have it on hand, so it's unwise to become dependent on it unless there is no other choice. Some day the horse's lives may depend on them staying quiet and still to be worked on. They may be injured or trapped and need to be very calm and be handled in ways that are inconvenient or even painful to them. If a shoe gets twisted it has to be removed immediately before it damages the foot.
From your words, I have serious concerns about you trying to be a substitute farrier, even if just to trim or remove shoes. A horse's feet are nothing to mess around with. In addition, if the horses move, you will be able to do no better job than any other farrier could. Don't assume the horses will stand still for 'mommy', they are very unlikely to do so. Even if you have before, not doing it all the time you won't be able to do an accurate or healthy job, even if you used to. Therefore I feel it's your best option to work with the horses and train them to stand still for shoeing and trimming, and if you can't pay someone who can.
If you are physically able, make the time to start working with the horses today and plan to work on them every day. Watch some videos of farriers at work on youtube, and make a list of the postures and positions the horses must be trained for - the hind foot picked up high, the forefoot on a farrier's stand (a jack stand can do in a pinch, for training), etc. Teach your horses to stand perfectly and quietly still while their legs are picked up and held for five minutes each foot, then ten minutes each foot. Tap on the foot with a hammer, hold it as if you're using a hoof knife, a rasp, etc.
Work on all the positions each day, spending a minimum of 1/2 hr for each horse each day. Do not tolerate ANY movement - punish the horse firmly if it moves - not with a whip or slaps of the hand, but with the chain shank over their nose and a firm, assertive voice. Loudness does not mean firm and assertive. Don't allow the horse to 'crowd' (push shoulder against you) or to 'swing' his haunches away or toward you. Keep the horse on a straight line. Pick the same place for training as where he will be worked on by the farrier. If the horse is restless, longe or ride him til he's calm and relaxed, before working on his feet.
In general, try to use timing rather than force to get the horse to hold still. A slight jerk on the chain shank just before the animal walks off, is FAR more effective than a dozen much harder yanks after it has started to walk. Timing really is the key with teaching animals to stand still. Try to prevent movement rather than stop it once it's started.
Your horses need to be trained by you or someone you pay to train them, to stand for the farrier. There is no circular reasoning with this.
If your horse needs to be shod to ride it, then it has to be taught to stand still to be shod. And if you haven't done that, that's your fault, not the farrier's. Any farrier is perfectly within his rights to walk out if a horse is going to jeopardize his ability to get to the next call in one piece or on time. If I got only one shoe on in ten minutes I'd leave too.
MANY farriers will not train on horses because owners often complain, 'Don't be mean to Precious!'
In fact, there is every possibility that YOU were the one being unreasonable. Since I wasn't there, I put it 50-50. Could have been the farrier at fault, and could have been you.
They're put in the impossible position of risking their own physical safety because the horse is moving all over the place and is disobedient, they can't lift a finger to correct the horse without the owner pitching a fit.
"He was a moron"
Most likely, some 'helpful' person has already informed the farrier that you're saying this on line. You may have a difficult time getting other farriers in, if word gets around. As for the 'sexist' remark, some people talk like that when they get pushed to it. I've never had a farrier treat me badly when I have treated them with respect. If this guy really IS some sort of incompetent idiot, then what was it about him that caused you to select him? Maybe use different criteria. Look for experienced, skilled farriers that are in demand in your area. They cost more, but they are worth it.
I think it's important to recognize that customers put farriers in very bad positions. If the farrier is not allowed to correct the horse's behavior, he can't shoe the horse, he can't even guarantee his own safety. In his position what the horse does can harm him a whole lot more than a person holding the horse. Customers often put the farrier in impossibly situations and then are surprised when they walk out. But they don't understand, literally, the position the farrier is in.
I understand you are very upset with your vet and now your farrier, and have been through a lot recently. However, the bottom line is that it sounds like neither the mare nor Duke are properly trained for the farrier; it also sounds as if they are not getting trimmed or trimmed/reset frequently, which can cause difficulties with hooves and soundness down the road. This is of the utmost importance and is far, far more important than your anger at the farrier.
I think it's important to calm down and stop being angry at the farrier, no matter how much support you get for doing so here, and see to it that the horses are all very well trained to stand for the farrier. No matter who does your horses, they need to STAND STILL - for an extended period of time, in awkward positions, STILL. WITHOUT MOVING.
You need to think about it from the point of view of the horse's welfare, not yiour anger. On this occasion, she was rewarded for behaving badly. Her behavior may even escalate the next time, making the next farrier's job even harder.
Your horses ALL, including Duke, need to be trained as quickly as possible, so that they can have their feet handled and worked on, WITHOUT sedation, in any situation. Sedation is useful in some situations but you can never guarantee you will have it on hand, so it's unwise to become dependent on it unless there is no other choice. Some day the horse's lives may depend on them staying quiet and still to be worked on. They may be injured or trapped and need to be very calm and be handled in ways that are inconvenient or even painful to them. If a shoe gets twisted it has to be removed immediately before it damages the foot.
From your words, I have serious concerns about you trying to be a substitute farrier, even if just to trim or remove shoes. A horse's feet are nothing to mess around with. In addition, if the horses move, you will be able to do no better job than any other farrier could. Don't assume the horses will stand still for 'mommy', they are very unlikely to do so. Even if you have before, not doing it all the time you won't be able to do an accurate or healthy job, even if you used to. Therefore I feel it's your best option to work with the horses and train them to stand still for shoeing and trimming, and if you can't pay someone who can.
If you are physically able, make the time to start working with the horses today and plan to work on them every day. Watch some videos of farriers at work on youtube, and make a list of the postures and positions the horses must be trained for - the hind foot picked up high, the forefoot on a farrier's stand (a jack stand can do in a pinch, for training), etc. Teach your horses to stand perfectly and quietly still while their legs are picked up and held for five minutes each foot, then ten minutes each foot. Tap on the foot with a hammer, hold it as if you're using a hoof knife, a rasp, etc.
Work on all the positions each day, spending a minimum of 1/2 hr for each horse each day. Do not tolerate ANY movement - punish the horse firmly if it moves - not with a whip or slaps of the hand, but with the chain shank over their nose and a firm, assertive voice. Loudness does not mean firm and assertive. Don't allow the horse to 'crowd' (push shoulder against you) or to 'swing' his haunches away or toward you. Keep the horse on a straight line. Pick the same place for training as where he will be worked on by the farrier. If the horse is restless, longe or ride him til he's calm and relaxed, before working on his feet.
In general, try to use timing rather than force to get the horse to hold still. A slight jerk on the chain shank just before the animal walks off, is FAR more effective than a dozen much harder yanks after it has started to walk. Timing really is the key with teaching animals to stand still. Try to prevent movement rather than stop it once it's started.
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