Just changed to a raw meat....

[swimM4r]

Wow Chickerdoodle, thanks for all the info i am looking back into the previous pages for your posts. but i will look at Zoo diets. The dog food i have now is garbage. There is a lot to be desired for the food i give my dog. I will also consider a nicer blend of dog food, as opposed to the cheap stuff. Im wondering if its a protein deficiency and thats it. Without enough protein muscle doesn't develop and that could be a reason he is winded when before he used to just be warming up. HAHAHA Vegetarian Cats! I live out in Nevada i think they would consider that animal cruelty. Im even hesitant to tell people i'm gluten intolerant out here. I will probably cross bones out of this equation. I have a friend who has some very athletic k9s, his experience as a handler comes from a military career. He is the one who said, crack the egg on the food, shell and all. Time to start reading up!

 

[SavageDestiny]

I posted some stuff earlier in this thread, so I'll try not to repeat myself too much. You can go back and read the beginning of the thread, as there is some good info.

My best advice, is research, research, research. Talk to people who feed raw, to your vet , and anyone else who will let you pick their brains. Feeding raw is not easy and not (usually) cheap. Despite the bad rap formulated dog foods get, many of them are fairly well balanced. I usually recommend owners first look into switching food brands first before going raw. There are just a lot of variables when feeding raw, and its rare people are able to get it right. So it is fairly often that we see dogs (and cats) switched over to raw at the animal hospital for one thing or another. This is why so many vets are against feeding raw, and it is important to take their opinions seriously. Having to put down a dog for something totally preventable through education is just a real shame. (Don't even get me started on vegetarian and vegan cats!)

Salmonella is a big concern when feeding raw. It can be transmitted between species and can be a problem if you have small children or immunocompromised people/pets around. I just did radiographs on a dog with salmonella, so even they can be afflicted by it. It is an easy thing to treat, but can occasionally cause complications more serious.

You also have to be careful about feeding foods high in fat. High fat diets can cause pancreatic damage. I just read a study about chicken diets for zoo dog and cat species like wolves and ocelots. They found the diets to be extremely high in fat (who knew chicken could be so high in fat!) and it is causing obesity and organ damage in a lot of zoo animals. The data I was reading was related to breeding difficulties in exotic species, and obesity due to high fat diets is one issue. (Actually, I've found studying zoo diets to be very interesting, and very pertinent to raw feeding of pet dogs. Maybe something to look into)

Raw bones may not necessarily splinter like cooked bones, but they can still perforate the gut. So you definitely have to be careful and supervise the animal with bones. This occurs frequently with animals who are not used to eating raw bones.

I have found a lot of information about raw diets on the internet to be very biased and less factual, so keep that in mind when doing research. Try to gather facts and look at the pros-cons. Then decide if this route might work for you.

Salmonella is NOT as big an issue as you are making it out to be. Dogs with normal immune systems do not have an issue with it, and if basic sanitation procedures are followed- just like cleaning the kitchen after preparing raw meat for cooking- it is not a threat to people. My husband is immunocompromised and has lived with raw fed dogs and cats for 8 years. No issues. Not to mention that it has been shown that kibble fed dogs shed salmonella as well!

Raw is not rocket science. It is meat, bones, and organs fed from a variety of animals. You use the example of chicken fed animals getting too much fat- well, they shouldn't be eating just chicken! Variety is key. You can't take an example of an improperly fed diet and use it as a warning.

If we can feel comfortable raising human children on diets of our own making, why are we so scared of making dog food? It boggles the mind.

Anyone looking to start feeding raw should visit: http://preymodelraw.com/page/articles.html

 

[Chickerdoodle13]

I do sometimes give raw eggs to my dog mixed in with his dry food. He's done well with it. You still have the salmonella risk, but it helps to rinse the egg of with a bit of soapy water right before. I would say adding an egg every now and then is ok, but remember that it still has some extra fat and they can be high in cholesterol.

 

[Chickerdoodle13]

Salmonella is NOT as big an issue as you are making it out to be. Dogs with normal immune systems do not have an issue with it, and if basic sanitation procedures are followed- just like cleaning the kitchen after preparing raw meat for cooking- it is not a threat to people. My husband is immunocompromised and has lived with raw fed dogs and cats for 8 years. No issues. Not to mention that it has been shown that kibble fed dogs shed salmonella as well!

Raw is not rocket science. It is meat, bones, and organs fed from a variety of animals. You use the example of chicken fed animals getting too much fat- well, they shouldn't be eating just chicken! Variety is key. You can't take an example of an improperly fed diet and use it as a warning.

If we can feel comfortable raising human children on diets of our own making, why are we so scared of making dog food? It boggles the mind.

Anyone looking to start feeding raw should visit: http://preymodelraw.com/page/articles.html

There have been quite a few studies done that show dry dog food does not necessarily cause shedding of salmonellosis in dogs (Less studies done in cats). Salmonella can invade improperly stored food or wet food that has been contaminated. There have been some cases of dry dog food being contaminated at the factory where it is made. The risk is always there, but much much higher in raw diets.

Here is one study:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1716752/

Here's an article from the CDC:

http://www.cdc.gov/features/salmonelladrypetfood/

People keep mentioning that "normal" dogs don't have issues with salmonella, and this is just not true. I'm not really sure why people seem to believe this. I posted some links earlier in the thread. I'm glad your husband has done ok though. Salmonella is not fun and can turn pretty nasty! Many people and animals do just fine with treatment. It's much easier to disinfect after cooking with meat than it is to disinfect after a dog's meal! I know my animals like to pick up their food and eat all over the place, which means germs spread everywhere!

As I've mentioned before, I have seen animals do quite well on raw diets. I've also seen animals do well for many years and then do very poorly when their bodies can't handle it anymore. The problem is most people don't feed a balanced diet, and that is where many of the problems in dogs occur. People tend to think you just buy cheap meat on sale at the market and feed whatever. However, if we have the resources to feed the proper ratio of muscle and organs, then why not do it? There is a reason wild animals live shorter life spans. Part of it does have to do with nutrition and availability of resources. This is why I don't outright advise AGAINST raw, but recommend people research it. A lot.

I think you missed my point with the chicken example. Many people think it is ok to feed just chicken as a raw diet. Additionally, many people believe chicken to be a low fat option. Neither of these are true. It was not meant as a warning. It was meant to show that we really need to research the nutrition content of what we feed.

Many people DON'T feed their children proper diets, so it's easy for me to see why people have trouble feeding their animals properly, whether its a commercial or raw diet.

And I do love research articles. Seeing new research, or research that differs from what I've come up with helps me rework my beliefs about nutrition or correct mistakes.

 

[malndobe]

Wow Chickerdoodle, thanks for all the info i am looking back into the previous pages for your posts. but i will look at Zoo diets. The dog food i have now is garbage. There is a lot to be desired for the food i give my dog. I will also consider a nicer blend of dog food, as opposed to the cheap stuff.

Im wondering if its a protein deficiency and thats it. Without enough protein muscle doesn't develop and that could be a reason he is winded when before he used to just be warming up. HAHAHA Vegetarian Cats! I live out in Nevada i think they would consider that animal cruelty. Im even hesitant to tell people i'm gluten intolerant out here. I will probably cross bones out of this equation. I have a friend who has some very athletic k9s, his experience as a handler comes from a military career. He is the one who said, crack the egg on the food, shell and all. Time to start reading up!

If you want to work your Mali into it slowly, you can feed raw one meal and your kibble another. I know some raw feeders are horrified by this idea and will site the potential for all sorts of problems, but I've been feeding my dogs like this for years without an issue. The ratio varies from week to week based on what I can find at the grocery store, butcher, etc but they eat probably 40% raw and 60% kibble on average.

There are also quite a few prepared raw diets so all you have to do is hand the dog a thawed out patty or two or three and it is a balanced diet. This can be a good start for someone new to feeding raw while you figure out how to balance their diet by purchasing individual parts.

An occasional egg is good for them, some dogs will eat the shell and some won't. If your dog does, be careful how many you give them over a weeks time because the shell is very high in calcium. I feed mine a hard boiled egg once or twice a week (they all eat the shell that way), any more eggs than that are raw and without the shell.

 

[swimM4r]

malndobe, good eye not many people discern between the BM and the GSD. I will start working actual meats into his diet i feel if i switch between the two the kibble will be spilled all over the floor and he will be holding out for the meat. Even when he is hungry Kibble barely gets him excited. Im currently feeding him Purina Pro Plan... the one with the commercials during the superbowl of the dogs jumping on the docks and running through the woods. I say its garbage because it has a lot of "fillers" in it. In comparison to lesser known brands.

Chickerdoodle, good tip on washing the shells. I will be doing this. Ive read that it does significantly change the chances of contamination. While salmonella is in fact a rarity i've put too much time into this dog to overly expose him to risks involving food.

Savagedestiny, I understand your point on variety. Every good diet has it. It prevents vitamin deficiencies and helps to support a good immune system. I dont have kids yet, only got married 6 months ago but ive found a high protein, low carb and mandatory vegetable and fruit meal a day (fruit salad is my favorite) with 3-4 hours swimming a week can really kick any man, woman or child into shape.

 

[malndobe]

malndobe, good eye not many people discern between the BM and the GSD. I will start working actual meats into his diet i feel if i switch between the two the kibble will be spilled all over the floor and he will be holding out for the meat. Even when he is hungry Kibble barely gets him excited. Im currently feeding him Purina Pro Plan... the one with the commercials during the superbowl of the dogs jumping on the docks and running through the woods. I say its garbage because it has a lot of "fillers" in it. In comparison to lesser known brands.

I've had Malinois for over 20 years, somewhere I even have the "I am NOT a GSD" t-shirt LOL

I used to like the Pro Plan Performance, before they went to some funky "shredded" stuff that reminds me of Kibbles and Bits. Ingredient watchers will tell you it wasn't a quality food, but I know MANY Malinois who had sensitive stomachs that did well on that food for whatever reason. 1 very well known breeder of working dogs fed only that food to all his dogs. Another food they have done well on is the Diamond Extreme Athlete, if I can find a reliable source I plan to switch my dogs back to that. I fed it for a long time but got tired of having to special order it every time I needed food. Some do well on Canidea, but they changed their formula 4 or 5 years go and about 50% of the dogs I knew on it at the time, including some of my own, started to have really funky stools that looked like they had sand mixed in them. I know a few people who have gone back to them and the dogs have done well, most haven't. I would not use some of the richer foods like Evo, in general they don't seem to tolerate those as well.

 

[swimM4r]

Ha i need one of those t-shirts. Although i try not to really correct people on em because most people love my dog and want one, and most people just don't have the time of day to properly treat a mal. Most people cant make sure their dog runs miles a day, most people cant give their dog a job to do, most people cant spend hours a day of personal time with their dog. They'd be better of with the very similar not as physically demanding German Shepard. So you of all people should understand my boy should be warming up in life at age 4 not slowing down. He really does have a sensitive stomach, which i have heard is common as well. I really like cottage cheese and i used to put some in with his kibble and he loved it too, no stomach problems, and at that time was functioning with higher drive, maybe give it another go with that too. Do you still have a mal?

 

[malndobe]

So you of all people should understand my boy should be warming up in life at age 4 not slowing down. He really does have a sensitive stomach, which i have heard is common as well. I really like cottage cheese and i used to put some in with his kibble and he loved it too, no stomach problems, and at that time was functioning with higher drive, maybe give it another go with that too. Do you still have a mal?

Try a good quality yogurt, something with beneficial bacteria like Acidophilus in it. I find that helps if they have a sensitive stomach plus it adds various vitamins.

I still have a number of Malinois and actively train/compete in protection sports (mainly French Ring but also some Mondio, PSA and Schutzhund) and herding. Have dabbled in everything though (agility, flyball, obedience, weight pull, dock diving, etc) as time and $ allow. Currently I have everything from a 3 month old pup to my old retired 10 year old. My kennel is Dantero.

 

[swimM4r]

Oh wow, see you never know who you can run across on a chicken website! Your dogs are beautiful and have quite a lot drive. French ring is something i wish i knew more about, as im relatively new the competitive dog world.. my boy is a USA conformation Champion, Herding Test Title, Beginners Novice Obedience (BN), Rally Novice Obedience Title (RN), Canine Good Citizen certification (CGC). He was a sire for a northern California Kennel where he got his resume and moved up to the mountains of Tahoe with me to retire at age 4....lucky guy. But even in retirement he has proven himself to be quite useful out in the mountains. Hopefully he will show at the specialty this year but I gotta save some $. Gotta say "Wicked" really catches the eye!