Just changed to a raw meat....

[GD91]

Your a vet student, well, well done!

I still can't make up my mind whether I want to pursue a veterinary career, agricultural or Zoological. I love working with all sorts & 8 months ago (after being a happy-go-lucky housewife for 2 years ) decided I didn't want to lose my practical talent & got chickens... followed by rabbits... followed by quail.... followed by culling & butchering my first rooster painlessly.....

All on top of our cat & 2 dogs. I love how you only need a garden. We have a one bed flat, but as long as theres a big garden & three sheds I'm happy.

I've inspected the dogs, em, business. Not as smelly but still sloppy. Is this a sign of lacking in some calcium? It was sloppy before & still is, but I haven't given them a calcium supplement yet. Should that stop it? There was much less in quantity...

Also their raw diet is not going to be fully raw.... I've decided to home cook for them to after more research.

I know that raw & cooked food require different enzymes to digest & not to feed both together in a meal.

Oh & thought I'd try something for the veg.... I've found the dogs enjoy a bit of tinned vegetable soup mixed in with chicken soup. I mixed 1/3 of veg soup with a whole tin of chicken soup for the staffy, 2/3 a veg tin with a whole tin for the rottweiler.

Is unheated soup a good way to get them to digest some vegetable nutrition?

Sorry about the questions, just getting the basics going here

And I think the dogs had an issue with the grains.... everytime they are given anything that contains grain it makes them start to smell a little....

 

[GD91]

I can't have children.... which is a good excuse to have many animals

Update 4 days into change of diet:

Well the dogs have been doing much better. I really wish I could post you picks, as a veterinary student I think you'd be quite interested to see them because the change now is very noticeable. I'd also have sent you images of the difference in their stools

bummer I haven't got a digital / phone camera.

To describe it to you:

They have much, MUCH shinier coats & no dry fur left. Less scratching & chewing.

They smell much better in whole, Breath, coat, stools, everything.

They are no longer heavily bloated after meals & look better as dogs. They are leaner, but not approaching being underweight. While a full meal is noticeable a little in them, the fat bloatness doesn't happen.

They only go the toilet once a day now each instead of 5-6 times each & its a firm stool.

I have been adding supplements to their food, Canine conditioning tablets.
Also been letting them have a large cooked bone each after meals for 10 - 20 minutes & eggsshell powder mixed into meals.

I've been using their stools as a guess as to whether or not they are getting sufficient calcium or too much.

We are feeding them home cooked food now btw, only the cat eats raw now.

Tonight its beef & liver stew. With veg & poached eggs mixed in, 2 handfuls of cereal mixed in with oils & a little butter added & herbs. Calcium powder added. One slice of bread for the medium dog & 2 for the larger dog. And I am just waiting for it to cool while the dogs are sitting in the kitchen staring up at the counter,

They have been calmer when eating their meals to, no more rushing & no more horrible bloat after eating. The whole flat smells fresher.

Makes you want to campaign against bad commercial dog food producers to improve the meals or at least the nutrition.

Must be bad for the good commercial producers to be tarred with the same brush to.... if there are any truly good ones.

It wouldn't happen though, too many people trust them so blindly.

 

[Redyre Rotties]

It's not cheap, but it is not hard to do.

I will preface the following comments by stating that I have fed a raw diet to my dogs since 1993. I have whelped and raised a number of litters onto raw, I have switched several purchased puppies and adult dogs to raw cold turkey, and I have fed a raw diet to dogs from the age of 21 days to past 12 years of age.

I have never had any issue with any of my dogs related to feeding them raw food. Never. Not once.

You do need to do some research before embarking on any home constructed diet for your dogs.

A raw food diet must contain raw meat, raw bones, and some organ meat. You want proportions similar to what occurs in prey animals such as a rabbit. About 60% meat, 20-25% bone, about 10% organ meat, and 5% or less incidentals such as eggs, whole grains, dairy, vegetables, fruits.

I use supplements from Nature's Farmacy to make sure I am covering all my bases. I use a general vitamin supplement, a soft tissue/skeletal support supplement, a digestive enhancer, and one designed to be fed when feeding meat without bone.

Variety is good and important like with any healthy diet. Balance over time is fine. If you feed meat without bone for a couple of days, you can then feed more bone and catch up to the balance.

Salmonella is of no concern to a healthy dog.

Care should be exercised when using ground meats. Ground meat does not occur in the wild. when meat is ground, bacteria which occur on the outside of meat in manageable amounts (for carnivores) is mixed inside, and if not kept under proper conditions, overgrowth can occur that is too much even for a dog. So if you are using ground meat, exercise the same care in keeping it frozen or cold before serving as you would for yourself. Whole pieces of meat have much more leeway and will rarely reach a state that would affect a normal dog. My dogs eat chicken that smells "high" routinely, and they much prefer it in this condition.

I am currently feeding 3 dogs and one puppy, all Rottweilers. This group is consuming about 20 lbs of ground meat per week and about 30 lbs of chicken leg quarters.

If anyone has other questions about feeding a home constructed raw diet, I will be happy to answer or research any questions you might have.

 

[GD91]

One of our dogs is a rottweiler.

I've already done loads of research....

Many vets, nutritionists and dog owners swear testimonials about the benefits & health improvements of switching to raw / homecooked.

Many other vets, critics & commercial pet food producers say its bad for the pets & the nutritional needs cannot / will not be met by pet owners (again with testimonials).
Then I read somewhere that even the pet food companies aren't 100% sure about the nutritional requirements of dogs. Apparently an example is Taurine is an amino acid they are unsure whether it is necessary to add to the food or not, although we all know it is important to cats. They only discovered this in, I think it said the 1980's when cats began dying.

And then there's the people who remain skeptics about everything & can't seem to decide which is the worst. Those website where a complete waste of time to read, gave no useful information at all & was simply a rant by a person whom (when read through properly) it became clear they weren't 100% in the know about what they were ranting about.

Clearly it can be done with the right know how & by ensuring the dog gets the right nutrition. I think this probably required much research by pet owners & it clearly requires more level of commitment. The owner has to monitor the diet & ensure nothing is lacking or being over fed in the diet. Some owners maybe just get it wrong & that is where concern for the pets health comes into play.

I've noticed nothing but improvement, so if my dogs live 14 years or so, I'm for the home cooked / raw diets

Oh, and yes, I've been making sure I feed them correct amounts of protein, amino acids, calcium & vitamins, fats & minerals etc. Its not hard at all, then again I've done lots of research. I can now tell you a dog requires 1000mg of calcium per pound of food & my dogs consume 850grams of food between them now compared to their original consumption of 1600 grams of commercial pet food which just made them poop alot & clearly had a minimum nutritional value.

Also the staffy seems to have grain issues - everytime she's fed anything with grain, unless its an extremely small amount, she starts to stink a little. bread, certain cereals etc.
I'm cutting it out completely from their food & feed them alternative fiber instead. I don't mind giving it now & again in small amounts, but not too often.

Anyone else noticed good things happening on alternative diets to commercial pet food?

 

[Chickerdoodle13]

It's not cheap, but it is not hard to do.

I will preface the following comments by stating that I have fed a raw diet to my dogs since 1993. I have whelped and raised a number of litters onto raw, I have switched several purchased puppies and adult dogs to raw cold turkey, and I have fed a raw diet to dogs from the age of 21 days to past 12 years of age.

I have never had any issue with any of my dogs related to feeding them raw food. Never. Not once.

You do need to do some research before embarking on any home constructed diet for your dogs.

A raw food diet must contain raw meat, raw bones, and some organ meat. You want proportions similar to what occurs in prey animals such as a rabbit. About 60% meat, 20-25% bone, about 10% organ meat, and 5% or less incidentals such as eggs, whole grains, dairy, vegetables, fruits.

I use supplements from Nature's Farmacy to make sure I am covering all my bases. I use a general vitamin supplement, a soft tissue/skeletal support supplement, a digestive enhancer, and one designed to be fed when feeding meat without bone.

Variety is good and important like with any healthy diet. Balance over time is fine. If you feed meat without bone for a couple of days, you can then feed more bone and catch up to the balance.

Salmonella is of no concern to a healthy dog.

Care should be exercised when using ground meats. Ground meat does not occur in the wild. when meat is ground, bacteria which occur on the outside of meat in manageable amounts (for carnivores) is mixed inside, and if not kept under proper conditions, overgrowth can occur that is too much even for a dog. So if you are using ground meat, exercise the same care in keeping it frozen or cold before serving as you would for yourself. Whole pieces of meat have much more leeway and will rarely reach a state that would affect a normal dog. My dogs eat chicken that smells "high" routinely, and they much prefer it in this condition.

I am currently feeding 3 dogs and one puppy, all Rottweilers. This group is consuming about 20 lbs of ground meat per week and about 30 lbs of chicken leg quarters.

If anyone has other questions about feeding a home constructed raw diet, I will be happy to answer or research any questions you might have.

I hate to disagree with you, because I really do respect your opinions and your experience. However, salmonella can certainly be a concern in dogs whether they are healthy or not, though it is more often seen in immunocompromised individuals. I've personally seen otherwise healthy dogs come down with salmonella. They often present with septicemia.

Here's a good article from the University of Wisconsin vet school about it.

http://www.vetmed.wisc.edu/pbs/zoonoses/gik9fel/salmonella.html

What is more of a concern though, is transmission from dog to human. A dog could be a carrier and never show symptoms, and the number of dogs fed raw that shed salmonella is more than I expected.

Here's another interesting website from WSU. They are currently running a study on salmonella infection in dogs and cats.

http://www.vetmed.wsu.edu/depts_waddl/salmonella.aspx

This is a PDF from Tufts with some excellent references. It outlines some of the common myths about feeding raw. I've seen raw fed for many years without issues, so I don't think it is an option that should never be used or considered. I think every animal is an individual when it comes to diet. Whether or not a person feeds raw is their personal decision, and I certainly don't think a person is doing anything wrong by feeding a raw diet if they've done their homework. (Unless a dog or cat comes in repeatedly with raw related issues) The problem is a majority of people don't research.

http://www.tufts.edu/vet/nutrition/resources/raw_meat_diets.pdf

This is the AVMA's policy on raw diets.

https://www.avma.org/KB/Policies/Pa...imal-Source-Protein-in-Cat-and-Dog-Diets.aspx

A great website from OSU explaining safe meat handling procedures, as well as some of the terms heard frequently regarding dog food ingredients.

http://vet.osu.edu/vmc/myths-and-misconceptions-surrounding-pet-foods

 

[Chickerdoodle13]

I just wanted to add a reminder that a diet too high in fat can cause pancreatitis, which is another commonly seen ailment resulting from improper raw diet. It can result from too many table scraps as well, which is why a balanced diet is important.

 

[Redyre Rotties]

My dogs eat raw chicken pieces almost every day, along with ground meat blends that include green tripe. I have a very close relationship with my dogs. My dogs lick me on the face, near and about my mouth frequently. I have never had any issue with any transmitted illness.

And certainly an abnormally high amount of fat can cause pancreatitis, in particular cooked fat.

This goes back to keeping it simple and as natural as possible. Dogs need the amount of fat that occurs naturally in animals. I don't need to know the percentages. I just need to feed whole pieces of meat and not add fat that is not normally there.

The ground meats that I feed I buy from a company and they are prepared for dogs and maintain certain average fat levels.

It really is not rocket science. Not so long ago, ALL dogs were fed scraps and etc in addition to whatever else they could scrounge for themselves. I feel that any fresh food in a dog's diet is better than none.

I do have a copious amount of real life experience feeding dogs a home constructed raw meat diet. My dogs are successful in the show and performance rings and they are blooming with good health and vitality. IMO a majority of dogs would benefit from more fresh food in their diets.

When I advise people about to undertake switching their dogs to raw food, I advise them to get the digestive support supplement, and to begin it 5 days before starting the raw food. In this way the dog's gut is primed with the proper flora to easily digest the new diet. I start dogs new to raw on a lower fat ground beef mix at first, or fresh ground turkey with puppies. Once they are stable and doing well on that, I will add in the organ meat mix, and finally whole chicken pieces. Every dog I have ever moved to raw adjusted well and really enjoyed their food.

It's not for everyone. It is VERY expensive, and it takes more time to acquire. You have to have a freezer, plan aheaad to have enough thawed, and it takes up a lot more room.

 

[GD91]

I read about excess fat in meals causing pancreatic problems.

The expense isn't bad for us, our local supermarket always has organs & meats that are reduced to clear every evening along with cooked meats, sausage rolls (for us) pork pies etc. Each item only costs about 46p & DH goes shopping everyday anyway since we only have a tiny box freezer & a fridge. He cycles across town everyday to get tea. We only eat one or two meals a day here. So everything's fresh

They have started having stools wrapped in mucus.... I've read this is a detoxifying period now where there bowels begin to clear out the bad stuff from being a fed a commercial grain diet. They haven't had any raw food since 3 days ago & its the last 2 days worth of stools which were homecooked meals.

Apart from that, both stools are of a healthy light brown long type that's solid.

Much better.

Now to see how long their bowels take to clear.

And Chickerdoodle13, I've read your links.

For the reasons in the links, I had decided to take it steady by feeding the dogs homecooked meals for now.

We know salmonella is serious and cross species infection can occur. It is for those reasons our dogs are trained not to lick us at all. For the same reasons I also make sure not to come into direct contact with feces.

I (like you) studied Salmonella at my Zoological college, particularly when we were doing a reptile course. We also studied it while doing a feeding (Food prep) course for animals. I don't know if it will surprise you, but all the carnivores & a few omnivores at the college zoo (servals, meerkats, ferrets, birds of prey, wolves etc) were all fed raw meat. Rabbits, rats, chicks and the like, brought in & frozen & defrosted from the freezer & fed whole. There are many ways to contract Salmonella. Yes, it does cause occasional illness, but generally both people & animals recover from it & it improves the immune system in the long run if you have contracted it (not that it feels like it at the time). In rare cases there are deaths, but that is uncommon.

What we were taught is if you follow basic food hygiene practices, the chances of Salmonella & E.Coli reaching dangerous levels & causing infection is extremely slim. And even if it did happen, it was normally easy to treat.

That doesn't mean of course its safe to feed raw meat without running a few safety precautions first. But as long as common sense is used during the buying, defrosting & preparation of the meat & you don't let your dog or cat stick its tongue down your throat like some owners do, the risk is extremely minimal.

I also read the bit about the wolves in nature, on one link, only live for a few years before they die. We know why wolves die, its not so much from poor nutrition, its because after the age of 4-5 years they simply can't keep up with the pack because they slow down (you see it in dogs to, if you run them), which leads to poor nutrition and health & then they get sent packing by another pack member(s) when they sense it no longer has any value. So without the protection & resources from the pack they die of hunger since they can no longer keep pace with their prey.
If you took it in & kept feeding it its natural diet, it would probably live as long as an average dog.

Otherwise it is not really rational to compare an animals life thats struggling to survive in the wild with a pets life who's being catered for in a domestic situation. Whomever made that comparison in the link & tried to blame it on diet was not correct. Captive wolves can & do live as long as dogs on raw meat diets in zoos around the world.

I did find those links very interesting though, just thought I'd let you know what I knew to from practical studies on my course

 

[Chickerdoodle13]

Sounds like you've done your homework and things are working well! As I said before, diet, just as in people, is a very individual thing. I don't think there is a one size fits all food.

I'd be interested to hear updates as you switch over though.

 

[GD91]

Sounds like you've done your homework and things are working well! As I said before, diet, just as in people, is a very individual thing. I don't think there is a one size fits all food.

I'd be interested to hear updates as you switch over though.

I agree, I don't think one diet fits all dogs either. Like people, individual circumstances have to be taken into consideration. Like, how the dog eats for one thing.... If the dog doesn't eat properly it will be susceptible to choking etc. I read this http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20081014040714AAC8eGF .
While I know this is yahoo here, it sounds like some people feel pressured to feed their pets raw by others. This should never be the case & I think we shouldn't hide any risks involved. If pet owners are more aware of the risks then they can recognize when their pet is not agreeing completely with a raw meat diet or parts of it.

An example of this is my staffy, she was straining a lot earlier before a poop shot out of her butt. She yelped as she passed this & it began to turn white within half an hour. Clearly she had consumed to much bone because of her habit to just snap off large chunks & swallow. She has very powerful jaws for a dog & can demolish a large pork joint bone in 15 mines, much faster than our rottweiler. She clearly uses many pounds of pressure that would be hard even for a large breed to do. She has previously had an enema due to this years ago, so now I have to monitor to make sure I remove bones from her fast or she will just swallow the lot in one go.

Bones will constipate dogs & kill them if consumed too fast, especially those large cooked bones that are (oddly) sold to dog owners. It was one of those bones which had my dog in the vets overnight & nearly killed her with constipation. When the blockage was removed, she came home extremely thin & stinking of poop, once the blockage was gone everything that was backed up in her came out in her cage at the vets.

The signs of this were:

Constant straining with yelping occasionally, with apparent weight again, but loss of appetite & dull coat. This is within 3 - 5 days & you must act fast.

I find this more common than any other problem with large bones.

I certainly would not recommend leaving bones with any form of bully breed or bullterrier, they can snap off great amounts & don't chew properly.

I've not tried a raw bone yet..... only cooked ones & these are removed when they have been chewed down to 2/3 the size they were.




Anyway, update today, the good & the bad:

Today both dogs passed a bowel movement. Treo's (Rotty) bowel movement was perfect. A solid dark poo sitting in the grass. Just the one. She's 3 years old & has adjusted well although she threw up a tiny bit tonight of fluid, just a dribble which was quickly wiped & bleached. I think its the change in diet, today is the first time either dogs have shown any signs they have switched food 4-5 days in.

Keesha (the staffy) had an accident. She raced off the sofa while I was sitting in the living room & I found her pooing all over the hallway in a panic. Opened the back door & she ran out up the garden & immediately squatted. My hallway stunk to high heaven although I had been waiting for her to do this, she won't go outdoors in bad weather until she is completely busting for a poop, normally she just lies on the sofa & farts constantly.
Luckily I have hardwood floors, so clean up wasn't too bad. Her poo was solid but yellowy, light brownish firm balls with mucus finally followed by a longer poo the same colour. I got the impression she was shocked at the fact she was having to strain to do a firm poo after 2 years of producing 5 lots a day of sloppy near-diarrhea and passing lots of gas. She seemed to realize at the last minute what she thought was wind coming out was actually poop & made a race for the back door.

It smelt foul, if you all want to know the trauma I went through

The improvements are still there to, but I think now we will be seeing more of the change over effects.

Tonight they had raw (cleaned) pork mince with raw (cleaned & de-salted) bacon with a bit of fat removed (since bacon is fatty anyway) for their tea. I only fed them a small amount today to give their stomachs a little break.

Keesha is older (6 years) & seems to be finding the change harder, but there are no signs of issues yet apart from the constipation today, which she took 5 minutes to pass.

I've got a cheap digital camera somewhere, I'm going to try and upload images soon so I can show you.