Lavender-Based Leghorn Breeding & Improvement Discussion

[The Moonshiner]

Here's some pics of my first isabellas.
This one was my first.

This was one of my second generation isabellas. He was from the above rooster bred to some lt browns then offspring bred together.

This cockerel was a few more generations in. He ended up coloring in nicely it takes a bit for the gold types to get full color.
He was my rooster I was using till I lost him back in the summer when the wind storm blew apart my breeder barn and he was one of the ones I lost.

I'll explain the birds more in a while and why I posted those

 

[ChicKat]

That's right you already did mention a difference in the e-Locus and that makes a BIG difference.

Answering the question -- I never had any that weren't e+e+ because I kept my Legbars true to that and only retained any chicks for my breeding program when Legbar splits that indicated e+. Autosexing was a big part of my objectives and I think that requires the 'wild-type' duckwing ---
There is SO much complexity in the genetics because there is so much stuff IN there and one little tweak can cause a lot of other tweaks.
When outcross time comes my way -- I really want to find a rare-bird. e+e+ and double barred and mahogany and then maybe split for lav -- so it would only be one generation away from my desired outcome.

Those are fabulous pictures of the chicks showing the e-Locus -- I think I have a black and white diagram somewhere that also shows -- but your photos are pretty amazing to indicate the differences that e can produce in chicks. I'll snoop around and see if I can dig up the diagram for comparison.

 

[ChicKat]

For post 32... Mr. first rooster

Also agree that it takes a bit of time for their true plumage to come in.

 

[Tbird84]

They do seem to take a bit longer for the boys to fill in to full glory. I know the yellow legs need some work on mine. I'm sure a nagging holdover from the orpington ancestry.

 

[Tbird84]

Yes, I would agree. Lavender as Moonshiner says is a dilution gene that affects both the black and red pigments. Andalusian uses different genes.


Agreed -- it gets confusing and to the eye it looks more lavender than blue -- so why muddle things up with nomenclature?


Andalusians are not that common any more are they? I may have to do some digging.


Those blues are different from the effects of lavender gene. And they are different genes. I got a quote to put in -- but not sure it will shed a lot of light. Do Andalusians come in black or splash?



The just want to make us crazy actually. -- LOL -- There are hobby names for colors and genetic names for colors -- but the gene according to the chicken calculator is lav...and as you said recessive.

Here's something from my newest book on Genetics:
"The blue gene (Bl) varies greatly in expression, from pastel "powder puff" Blue to a mid-Blue, right through to a very charcoal Blue, with many shades in between these three examples " under three photos of light, med and dark blue chickens pg.74 in the heading The Complexity of the Blue gene. Book is 21st Century Poultry Breeding by Grant Brereton.
Also on that page:
"In such varieties as the Andalusian, the Blue Orpington, and the Blue Australorp, a distinct dark lace is required to surround the blue interior of the feather. This was thought to be made possible by the presence of the combined Lacing genes of the Laced Wyandotte being present in an otherwise self Blue fowl(Carefoot 1984).
The Blue gene was always thought of as largely 'unpredictable' in relation to the particular shade it produced when present in single form. The Mendellian laws of the Blue gene have long been established and two copies of Blue gives a splashed appearance, no matteron whar background.
So why the varying shades? In my opinion, the Blue Gene is consistent in expression, but relies heavily on the quantity of Black pigment present in any given fowl to determine its particular shade. If such Black genes are purified within a strain it is likely the shade of Blue produced will be consistent regardless of the particular shade itself. " P74 21st Century Poultry Breeding by Grant Brereton.

SOOOOOOOOOOOOO --- probably for our lavender projects/breeding there is a similar consideration of the strength of the Black genes that are being diluted by blue -- AND the presence of Mahogany gene to make the hackles 'pop' for our mixed color birds. I guess is a person is aiming for a lavender leghorn that has no added colors it would be a black unpatterned starting point with lav. gene added.

Which circles me around to a couple of things. (See if I'm clear on these Moonshiner)
1. We may -- have to introduce the original non-lavender colors from time to time in out crosses to keep the vibrancy of plumage. Many generations of lavender without an outcross MAY produce faded looking birds.]
2. Very dark pigmented blacks will enhance the lavender portions of our birds
3. Mahogany will enhance the 'red' portions of our birds.

And just wait until we get into -- gold and silver in the mix.

ETA -- found internet answer to the question I asked TheMoonshiner:
Blue Andalusians lay white eggs. They are very active and great for free range and foraging situations. Like all blue fowl, they produce black and splash offspring as well as the blue color.

I think you nailed it here with the quotes from your book. I am also working on LF Lavender Cochins. My research has led me to out crossing to high quality blacks. To improve feather quality and to improve the consistency of the color. I'm not sure if my experience with breeding cockatiels has any bearing, but in the early 90s we were working with the lutino, whiteface, and albino colors. All are recessive. The thing we learned is if you have too many generations of breeding recessive to recessive, you loose size, vigor, temperament, feather quality. Many did it any way as a quick way to get their desired colors. Using split outcrosses was important to maintain quality. So, I'm going to apply the same logic here.

 

[The Moonshiner]

That first rooster came from buddy. He was pretty decent and extremely decent compared to the other males that were his siblings. I thought they came with some serious flaws.
That rooster had feather issues. You can see on his upper wing and base of his tail the feathers just didn't want to grow in. I'd never seen that before and his brothers all had it to.
At the time I tried to reach out to some others but seemed no one wanted to talk about it. I saw it in pics of others birds but got no where with a dialog about it. He also had some shredding and white feathers in his tail.

 

[Tbird84]

That first rooster came from buddy. He was pretty decent and extremely decent compared to the other males that were his siblings. I thought they came with some serious flaws.
That rooster had feather issues. You can see on his upper wing and base of his tail the feathers just didn't want to grow in. I'd never seen that before and his brothers all had it to.
At the time I tried to reach out to some others but seemed no one wanted to talk about it. I saw it in pics of others birds but got no where with a dialog about it. He also had some shredding and white feathers in his tail.

Yes, that is what I mean by the feather quality issues. Mine have it to some degree. I never got very far in figuring out exactly what caused it. What research I was able to pull up points to a few possible factors. One being a double delayed feather gene. I'm sure I didn't say it right. Also something about amino acids was mentioned. I need to find those articles.

 

[Tbird84]

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2253553/

Actually, I found the article. Now to see if I can get it to load. Take a look through and see what you all think.

 

[The Moonshiner]

The second boy made progress with the feathers not wanting to come In and the shredding. You could see he had smaller areas then the first rooster.
Of course when I got to that stage the issues that the first roosters siblings had that he didn't all came out. So much for getting away from them by using a rooster that didn't show them.
Bad tail set and dropped wing. I had noticed other breeders having dropped wings with a lot of their birds also.
Some were also having lots of red in lobes. I never had that issue.
About this time I had been splitting with browns every other generation while some others hadn't been. Others had a lot of isabellas on the ground and egg sells were fetching steep prices. I didnt have a lot of isabellas but I had several splits so I went back to splits with the isabellas.
I was then making some progress with building a better bird but there wasn't anyone to work with. Seems selling eggs and chicks became priority so I faded back and just did my own thing.
When I got to the third bird I had made notable improvements. Hadn't had feather issues for a minute. Hadn't seen shredding in any birds in a couple generations. Had got the wings up and some birds with good tail set.

 

[The Moonshiner]

By the time I got up and running with the third bird I'd started crossing with barred leghorns to get to solid colored lavenders. I used cuckoo because they were better then my blacks and I could work the same birds towards lavenders and cuckoo lavenders.
By that time I had also ended the Rose comb project.
After getting a couple chicks from the spin off project I started to get going on the lavender silver duckwing project and looking for best route to adding cuckoo to both Isabella and lavender SD.
Mother nature recked havoc over the long cold snowy winter and then the chaos of the wind storm I was set back in all projects.
I'm hoping for a easier winter and see what I have to work with next spring.