Lavender-Based Leghorn Breeding & Improvement Discussion

[The Moonshiner]

It's not a huge deal to me. I never heard andalusians referred to as self blue, but I also was not a show goer either. Most now have probably not heard of the term self blue. To my understanding, self blue is genetically and visually different from the andalusian (laced) blue.

I agree with this.
As far as I've ever known andalusian blue and self blue has been different.
Andalusian is the Blue as in BBS. It has lacing. It has always been what andalusians are.
Self blue is a recessive blue that breeds way different then andalusian blue. I've had self blue oegbs way back. And I first seen it in porcelain D'Uccles. The "lavender" gene was the only difference in the porcelain and the Mille Fleur. Unlike the BBS variety lavender dilutes gold, red etc. Also.
I've always heard the gene has been referred to as lavender but the color was called self blue by the APA.
IDK why they call the gene lavender but the color self blue.
When lavender orps got real popular is when I first started hearing the color just called lavender. And of course outside of the show world the color lavender has been known over self blue. The gene talked about in this thread is the same gene as in lavender orps self blue APA varieties.

 

[ChicKat]

I don't think that You can get the same color with Lavendar as what is seen in the Andalusian breed.

Yes, I would agree. Lavender as Moonshiner says is a dilution gene that affects both the black and red pigments. Andalusian uses different genes.

f not my vote is to never refer to Lavendar as Self blue

Agreed -- it gets confusing and to the eye it looks more lavender than blue -- so why muddle things up with nomenclature?

I never heard andalusians referred to as self blue,

Andalusians are not that common any more are they? I may have to do some digging.

Andalusian is the Blue as in BBS. It has lacing.

Those blues are different from the effects of lavender gene. And they are different genes. I got a quote to put in -- but not sure it will shed a lot of light. Do Andalusians come in black or splash?

IDK why they call the gene lavender but the color self blue.

The just want to make us crazy actually. -- LOL -- There are hobby names for colors and genetic names for colors -- but the gene according to the chicken calculator is lav...and as you said recessive.

Here's something from my newest book on Genetics:
"The blue gene (Bl) varies greatly in expression, from pastel "powder puff" Blue to a mid-Blue, right through to a very charcoal Blue, with many shades in between these three examples " under three photos of light, med and dark blue chickens pg.74 in the heading The Complexity of the Blue gene. Book is 21st Century Poultry Breeding by Grant Brereton.
Also on that page:
"In such varieties as the Andalusian, the Blue Orpington, and the Blue Australorp, a distinct dark lace is required to surround the blue interior of the feather. This was thought to be made possible by the presence of the combined Lacing genes of the Laced Wyandotte being present in an otherwise self Blue fowl(Carefoot 1984).
The Blue gene was always thought of as largely 'unpredictable' in relation to the particular shade it produced when present in single form. The Mendellian laws of the Blue gene have long been established and two copies of Blue gives a splashed appearance, no matteron whar background.
So why the varying shades? In my opinion, the Blue Gene is consistent in expression, but relies heavily on the quantity of Black pigment present in any given fowl to determine its particular shade. If such Black genes are purified within a strain it is likely the shade of Blue produced will be consistent regardless of the particular shade itself. " P74 21st Century Poultry Breeding by Grant Brereton.

SOOOOOOOOOOOOO --- probably for our lavender projects/breeding there is a similar consideration of the strength of the Black genes that are being diluted by blue -- AND the presence of Mahogany gene to make the hackles 'pop' for our mixed color birds. I guess is a person is aiming for a lavender leghorn that has no added colors it would be a black unpatterned starting point with lav. gene added.

Which circles me around to a couple of things. (See if I'm clear on these Moonshiner)
1. We may -- have to introduce the original non-lavender colors from time to time in out crosses to keep the vibrancy of plumage. Many generations of lavender without an outcross MAY produce faded looking birds.]
2. Very dark pigmented blacks will enhance the lavender portions of our birds
3. Mahogany will enhance the 'red' portions of our birds.

And just wait until we get into -- gold and silver in the mix.

ETA -- found internet answer to the question I asked TheMoonshiner:
Blue Andalusians lay white eggs. They are very active and great for free range and foraging situations. Like all blue fowl, they produce black and splash offspring as well as the blue color.

 

[ChicKat]

What I REALLY like about this chicken:

1. Definite Lavender
2. Definite Pattern
3. Beautiful hackles and wing feathers
4. Defined bar of dark feathers on his wing.
5. Nice sleek look even though a baby
6. Nice white earlobes.

Really a nice looking juvenile...if it had a more upright stance I could mistake it for a game fowl (with all of my non-expertise that is) -- perhaps because Rose comb looks relatively small and makes the head look smaller than other Leghorns.

 

[Tbird84]

Yes, Andalusians breed bbs. Large white eggs. Good specimens are not common here in the states.

 

[Tbird84]

Yes, I would agree. Lavender as Moonshiner says is a dilution gene that affects both the black and red pigments. Andalusian uses different genes.


Agreed -- it gets confusing and to the eye it looks more lavender than blue -- so why muddle things up with nomenclature?


Andalusians are not that common any more are they? I may have to do some digging.


Those blues are different from the effects of lavender gene. And they are different genes. I got a quote to put in -- but not sure it will shed a lot of light. Do Andalusians come in black or splash?



The just want to make us crazy actually. -- LOL -- There are hobby names for colors and genetic names for colors -- but the gene according to the chicken calculator is lav...and as you said recessive.

Here's something from my newest book on Genetics:
"The blue gene (Bl) varies greatly in expression, from pastel "powder puff" Blue to a mid-Blue, right through to a very charcoal Blue, with many shades in between these three examples " under three photos of light, med and dark blue chickens pg.74 in the heading The Complexity of the Blue gene. Book is 21st Century Poultry Breeding by Grant Brereton.
Also on that page:
"In such varieties as the Andalusian, the Blue Orpington, and the Blue Australorp, a distinct dark lace is required to surround the blue interior of the feather. This was thought to be made possible by the presence of the combined Lacing genes of the Laced Wyandotte being present in an otherwise self Blue fowl(Carefoot 1984).
The Blue gene was always thought of as largely 'unpredictable' in relation to the particular shade it produced when present in single form. The Mendellian laws of the Blue gene have long been established and two copies of Blue gives a splashed appearance, no matteron whar background.
So why the varying shades? In my opinion, the Blue Gene is consistent in expression, but relies heavily on the quantity of Black pigment present in any given fowl to determine its particular shade. If such Black genes are purified within a strain it is likely the shade of Blue produced will be consistent regardless of the particular shade itself. " P74 21st Century Poultry Breeding by Grant Brereton.

SOOOOOOOOOOOOO --- probably for our lavender projects/breeding there is a similar consideration of the strength of the Black genes that are being diluted by blue -- AND the presence of Mahogany gene to make the hackles 'pop' for our mixed color birds. I guess is a person is aiming for a lavender leghorn that has no added colors it would be a black unpatterned starting point with lav. gene added.

Which circles me around to a couple of things. (See if I'm clear on these Moonshiner)
1. We may -- have to introduce the original non-lavender colors from time to time in out crosses to keep the vibrancy of plumage. Many generations of lavender without an outcross MAY produce faded looking birds.]
2. Very dark pigmented blacks will enhance the lavender portions of our birds
3. Mahogany will enhance the 'red' portions of our birds.

And just wait until we get into -- gold and silver in the mix.

ETA -- found internet answer to the question I asked TheMoonshiner:
Blue Andalusians lay white eggs. They are very active and great for free range and foraging situations. Like all blue fowl, they produce black and splash offspring as well as the blue color.

These genetics kind of go over my head at times(my mother was the genetics wiz) but seems that dark browns are the way to go to get a more impressive patterning? Does the breeding differ from Isabel x light brown?

 

[ChicKat]

What I like about Fricassee and the Dumplings

• They are so pretty
• Very red combs
• Fricassee has small wattles (may be a factor of youth)
• Nice and noticable wing-bar and nice wing triangle where the gold has been diluted to that peachy color.

I think Haikuidentified some areas to work on -- but I also like these birds.

One thing that happens in mine, with the addition of the barring gene -- the wing bar becomes more irregular -- so for selection of the lavender + cuckoo I'd go for males with best wing bars...all other things being equal. (What do you call that "note to self" or something like that).

 

[ChicKat]

Here's what has happened to that nice wing-bar that the Isabel pattern has once I added the barring gene:

zoomed in a little bit and you can see a faint darker lav and a couple of places where the black is only feebly diluted on the tips of his feathers..but the wing bar as a whole seems disrupted IMO. Note to self - work on wing bar.

Oh yeah, and a headshot. I want to get a lot of pictures of him before Frostbite has a chance to do comb damage. This is coming into his 2nd winter.

 

[ChicKat]

These genetics kind of go over my head at times(my mothers was the genetics wiz) but seems that dark browns are the way to go to get a more impressive patterning? Does the breeding differ from Isabel x light brown?

LOL -- Only genetics I know are the ones near and dear to my heart....not all of them that exist like TheMoonshiner......
You bring up a good question..if I'm understanding -- with the exception of Mahogany -- Isabel would probable be the same breeding program with those Isabel tracing back to light brown ancestors having a more subtle or diluted (faded?) set of colors.

 

[The Moonshiner]

These genetics kind of go over my head at times(my mothers was the genetics wiz) but seems that dark browns are the way to go to get a more impressive patterning? Does the breeding differ from Isabel x light brown?

Most I would think are from light brown breeding only.
The difference with breeding Isabella with dk brown is that dark brown are different genetically then Isabella ie light brown.
Isabella are e+ duckwing.
Dk brown are eb partridge so when you cross the two you get e+/eb. Those chicks end up more like a e+/e+ when mature.
They also get one mahogany gene and it will show with one gene.
Then you can breed to get the eb/eb with or without mahogany.
In other words when you cross Isabella with dk brown then breed those together you get a few different outcomes.
Here's an interesting chick pic for you.....

The from chick is an Isabella. The other three are Isabella splits.
The next one counter clockwise is e+/e+, then eb/eb and finally e+/eb.
Notice some differences?
@ChicKat you ever have any Isabella that had the pattern of the top left instead of the normal eye stripes?
I know for at least a while that CJ was breeding dk browns into hers.

 

[The Moonshiner]

Post wouldn't show pics so reposted...... Post 32