Lavender patterned Isabel duckwing barred - lavender brown cuckoo barred - project and genetic dis

[ChicKat]

Here's an interesting example of parent to child genetic inheritance

This pen contains the parent birds.





The male is Cream Legbar and the females are Isabel. One of the females has a tail that is skinny - but color wise they are nice examples of Isabel. Cream Legbar Club was revolving around coloration at the time I left - and perhaps wouldn't consider this guy a Cream Legbar -- but I definitely do. I think he has some Mahogany working on his saddles and it isn't related to gold or the lack of two recessive cream genes. My objective was to lower the tail angle of the Cream Legbars in my flock and this guy is a pretty good example. Everything about him is 'not too bad' IMO - with the exception of the comb. I think combs are kind of ugly in the first place and the ones that turn and twist are particularly ugly. It is not the fault of the chicken - but rather the fault of the humans who overloaded the skull by putting a huge comb and a crest fighting to take up the same space. Crested breeds like Appenzeller Spitzhauben and Brabanter - have combs that accommodate their crests and they look good. CL females look cute as long as their crests don't get overly bouffant and people attempt to turn them in to Polish -- Perhaps the CL is a breed that has good females and the males are just along for the ride (and to be sperm donors)

That shot shows the female with the funky tail..... Again, as I look at the male I think - 'hmmmm not TOO bad'.
Here are a couple of shots of the chicks that this pairing produces:



Pretty much zero indication of lavender (these two are just over 4-months old by the way) They look like a pair of brown leghorns with one copy of the barring gene.....



The above picture is strong confirmation that they have Wild type/duckwing genetics - she has clear 'salmon' breast feathers and he has strong duckwing markings between his red shoulder patch and 'gold' wing-triangle.


Does he look like he is saying "Am I just too handsome or what?" -- Nice white earlobes and nice yellow beak, except for that dark stripe at the very top.

Look what else he inherited from his father...that comb going askew. Note too, how the female on the left of the picture shows barring in her tail, and her undefulff.
And that is why I plan to eliminate the cresting gene going forward in my LPID-B2. That should give the cockerels a better chance for nice neat straight comb.
Female combs can be straight, flopped, it doesn't really matter.

Comparing father and son - The son has only 1 barring gene and two recessive dilution genes hence no real dilution. One of my concerns is that the LPID-B2 - with the power of the lavender gene working its dilution magic on the plumage will produce a bird that is too light to be really interesting/stunning.

And that is one reason that the equivalent of a gold legbar - (saturated, crestless legbar) will be needed to boost the pattern and color every few generations. Here is another GOOD result that will provide: occasionally it will be advisable to introduce a gold-crele bird - or more correctly a 'black patterned gold duckwing - barred (double factor) or BPGD - B2, into the breeding plan - therefore inbreeding shouldn't become a great problem. Challenges, challenges, challenges!

Last, but not least - this photo gives an indication of the 'salmon' breast on the female Isabel.

IMO, the more intense that salmon is - the better.

 

[ChicKat]

What are the odds that the lavenders from the very first hatch would all be barred?

 

[Kiki]

would it be a good guess to say 50/50 odds?


i swear I am trying to learn all this genetics stuff, but it is still quite confusing to me.

 

[ChicKat]

Here's a good genetics article I stumbled upon. It is very extensive:
http://www.nsppa.ca/documents/poultry_genetics2.pdf

This is but one gem from the article:

e+ , Wild‐type The dark eye stripe is characteristic of wild‐type. The wild‐type is often referred to as the 'chipmunk' look. The buff color of the face and back stripes are affected by sex‐linked silver and gold. You can easily tell Silver Duckwing chicks from Light Brown Leghorns, but you tend to have trouble in crosses, involving Ss heterozygotes, so there are probably modifiers that affect the gold color of the pure line chicks.

 

[ChicKat]

would it be a good guess to say 50/50 odds?


i swear I am trying to learn all this genetics stuff, but it is still quite confusing to me.

Sometimes, I'm being a comedian in my own mind....

-- and sometimes I have no hesitation to ask the unanswerable.

Know what, I think you are statistically right.. Since half that hatch would be destined to be barred, then it would be 50/50 as you say.

When I think of the chicken calculator and the number comes up as the likelihood of getting a certain genetic combination says 1 in 8 or something - and the calculator says 'minimum number of birds to breed 8' - it presupposes that the you have to hatch that many to insure that you get the one genetic combination that you are seeking. What statistics don't tell us is that if we pair birds that have the possibility of passing along the specific genes -- it's also possible to get the combination with hatching just 1 chick....but not as likely as if you hatch 8.

Thanks for listening to my musings. I see some barring on the feathers of all three of those lavenders (Isabels), with one in particular being the 'most' visible. The male has a few feathers that are faintly barred, and the other female has the appearance of some faint barring. It would be a huge stroke of luck to advance toward this project goal if those three were all to grow up and display the barring gene. They are three of the 4 lavs from the first hatch. One lav - that may have had a different E-Locus than e+ went with the browns (splits) from that hatch.

A wonderful lady picked up the 7 split chicks - the browns (splits) from this second hatch - and now only the 3 lavs (Isabel) from that 'second hatch' are in the brooder -- and wow -- going from 10 down to three, it is sure quiet out there.

The broody is sitting tight and she has another week + 1 day to go.

ETA - 3/9/17 - Thinking about it overnight--- I'm guessing the odds are a bit less than 50/50

- It's actually 25/75 - and the 25% is halved for a particular sex. Part of my wonderment was chicken calculator just now giving me 1/8 but that divides it out by sex. Confusing musings huh?

 

[ChicKat]

Here is a comparison to some split (brown-looking) chicks at about the same age as my three oldest project chicks (from the 2nd generation of hatches).





the above photo is the splits at about 3 1/2 weeks old. CL male and Isabel female - below is a different split male X Isabel female:









These lavs (Isabel) are about 5 weeks -
You can see that the colors/patterns are much more muted. The male is particularly lighter... He's on the right in the first picture and the only chick pictured in the seocond picture. Cream legbar males - and the splits that are SO colorful, don't get their colration until they begin to reach sexual maturity.

The splits in the first pictures are this set of juveniles now:












The last pictures (small) are blurry -- but you can see the coloration and compare to their earlier pictures at the top of this post.

 

[ChicKat]

Of interest --

Here are some random YouTube videos of Isabels:

This looks like the type of crele (gold crele) that would help with my project when the Isabel needs to be refreshed

Notice his nice white earlobes, yellow beak and legs and gold or 'brown' wing triangle (although interspersed with black bars) -- and compare to that artist rendition of gold crele.

 

[hhong3138]

Good news！I candled the eggs today, all but 4 are developing nicely! Thank, ChicKat ! Your roosters are surely doing the job. Unlike the rooster in my project pen, so far only half the eggs are developing

 

[Kiki]

Good news！I candled the eggs today, all but 4 are developing nicely! Thank, ChicKat ! Your roosters are surely doing the job. Unlike the rooster in my project pen, so far only half the eggs are developing

Yeaaaa.....!!!
Congrats..
when are the babies due?

 

[Kiki]

Of interest --

Here are some random YouTube videos of Isabels:

This looks like the type of crele (gold crele) that would help with my project when the Isabel needs to be refreshed

Notice his nice white earlobes, yellow beak and legs and gold or 'brown' wing triangle (although interspersed with black bars) -- and compare to that artist rendition of gold crele.

your next project...can you make a girl bird pretty like the boys for me?
LOL