Lavender patterned Isabel duckwing barred - lavender brown cuckoo barred - project and genetic dis

[ChicKat]

Good news - since Moonshiner will be a regular contributor to this thread as their project progresses with the Isabel + barring.. there will be added information and viewpoints. Yay!

The more ideas, experience and insight in this thread the better it will be.

Everyone is welcome to pitch in.

Meanwhile, too, -- here are some things that could be concerns for this type of project:

• Lavender gene can cause feather deterioration - they can look shredded
• Lavender gene can cause a problem that only shows up in the males where some of the shoulder wing feathers appear to be "permanent pin feathers" -- as if their growth is stunted
• Lavender reputedly fades out over time - and specific chickens will be needed to refresh the lavender from time to time

For my particular approach

• Cresting is incomplete dominant - cresting will have to go in my world, because I think cresting messes up the comb and the battle isn't really 'worth it' More about crests later
• The cream gene will need to be bred OUT and it is recessive -- so there will be no way to know it is there. What may happen down stream for me is that the golds/reds in the Isabel could be overly faded, and it could be possible that two of the future breeders could carry cream and a chick from then could get double cream, fading them too much. (correct term would be dilute).

 

[ChicKat]

Here's a superb and informative article by Brian Reeder:
http://brianreederbreeder.blogspot.com/

Post 2 in the following BYC thread has a fabulous diagram for lavender - and a brilliant way to show how the recessive works:
https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/73357/color-genes-punnett-squares

diagram by Guitarists - really nice job if it is.

 

[Kiki]

Yay!!! the first hatch for today.

Look how much this one baby rose the humidity in the incubator. -- I suppose the difference between the air temp and inside temp is a factor. There are 3 others already pipped. So I will pass out cigars for the new baby. (people don't even DO that any more do they?)

O boy HOW EXCITING!! Congrats!


We passed out gum cigars for the last many at the hospital..I think you should pass out meal words instead!!!

 

[ChicKat]

O boy HOW EXCITING!! Congrats!


We passed out gum cigars for the last many at the hospital..I think you should pass out meal words instead!!!

What a good idea -- Also, are there chocolate cigars? that sounds good too. Tomorrow is lockdown for the next incubator of 6 eggs/.

 

[The Moonshiner]

Meanwhile, too, -- here are some things that could be concerns for this type of project:

• Lavender gene can cause feather deterioration - they can look shredded
• Lavender gene can cause a problem that only shows up in the males where some of the shoulder wing feathers appear to be "permanent pin feathers" -- as if their growth is stunted
• Lavender reputedly fades out over time - and specific chickens will be needed to refresh the lavender from time to time

With our isabelles i'm still only breeding isabelles to brown split to isabelles. Mostly just to improve type but it should also help with these issues.
I know the color fade comes from to much lavender to lavender breeding. With other lavender breeds I used to breed back to base color every third generation.
The shredded feather you will have to breed away from or breed out. Selective breeding will take care of it but breeding to splits will help also.
That wing feather issue is new to me. Never seen it before with other lavender breeds. Id breed away from it also if I could. I dont hear much talk about it but we have had isabelles from three sources and every male ive gotten has had it to some degree. Its just gonna take a lot more time im afraid.

For my particular approach

• Cresting is incomplete dominant - cresting will have to go in my world, because I think cresting messes up the comb and the battle isn't really 'worth it'  More about crests later
• The cream gene will need to be bred OUT and it is recessive -- so there will be no way to know it is there.  What may happen down stream for me is that the golds/reds in the Isabel could be overly faded, and it could be possible that two of the future breeders could carry cream and a chick from then could get double cream, fading them too much.  (correct term would be dilute).

I know zero about crest genetics so no help there.
The cream may end up a headache down the road. Its just like the lavender gene being able to pass on unseen for generations.
Im working on this barred isabelle project but at same time a crele project. I will get crele looking birds that carry the lavender gene. Those will be my splits to breed back with the barred isabelles. At some point i will need the ones that dont carry lavender to be my pure crele line. No way around it I'll have to do test breeding to see who carries lav and who doesnt. Youll have to do the same with the cream gene if you ever want to be positive about who has it and who doesnt.

 

[ChicKat]

With our isabelles i'm still only breeding isabelles to brown split to isabelles. Mostly just to improve type but it should also help with these issues.
I know the color fade comes from to much lavender to lavender breeding. With other lavender breeds I used to breed back to base color every third generation.
The shredded feather you will have to breed away from or breed out. Selective breeding will take care of it but breeding to splits will help also.
That wing feather issue is new to me. Never seen it before with other lavender breeds. Id breed away from it also if I could. I dont hear much talk about it but we have had isabelles from three sources and every male ive gotten has had it to some degree. Its just gonna take a lot more time im afraid.
I know zero about crest genetics so no help there.
The cream may end up a headache down the road. Its just like the lavender gene being able to pass on unseen for generations.
Im working on this barred isabelle project but at same time a crele project. I will get crele looking birds that carry the lavender gene. Those will be my splits to breed back with the barred isabelles. At some point i will need the ones that dont carry lavender to be my pure crele line. No way around it I'll have to do test breeding to see who carries lav and who doesnt. Youll have to do the same with the cream gene if you ever want to be positive about who has it and who doesnt.

Super good insights. Thanks Moonshiner,
The Classroom in the coop link has some photos of what the really damaging feather problem is that lavender causes...and it is shown in that PDF where the Poster Boy's picture is.

Here's one example from the PDF: https://www.leghorn.nl/artikelen/Isabel patrijs-UK.pdf?phpMyAdmin=92cf0928fc32fa6ade98585639c49441

The saturation of the above, and the wing-triangle are closer to my preference - but the constant pinfeathers would be undesirable.

From classroom in the coop - http://www.the-coop.org/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=88090&page=3
RuffEnuff from Australia posted this photo:

Definitely something to breed away from. Thank you goes ouot to Classroom in the Coop and RuffEnuff.

Agreed that eliminating the recessive cream gene could involve a challenge....

So that is a good demarkation that every 3rd generation of lavender is best if refreshed with a breed back to the basic non-lavender source.

 

[hhong3138]

Congratulations on 100% hatching! Wow..they are so pretty!

 

[ChicKat]

Congratulations on 100% hatching! Wow..they are so pretty!

THANK YOU !!
They are so cute when they are this little --

Of the older ones:

I'm hoping that one is lavender plus barring.... The one in the center may be male -- the one on the left I'm hoping barred - the tail will probably be the best 'tell' as time goes on until it is certain one way or the other.

 

[hhong3138]

THANK YOU !! They are so cute when they are this little -- Of the older ones: I'm hoping that one is lavender plus barring.... The one in the center may be male -- the one on the left I'm hoping barred - the tail will probably be the best 'tell' as time goes on until it is certain one way or the other.

Fingers crossed! Can't wait to see how they look when fully feathered!

 

[hhong3138]

Ok, here is my understanding of lavender and barring genes. Please correct me if I am wrong:

* lavender is a recessive gene. A bird needs two doses of lav to actually appear lavender color. A bird is spit to lavender will not show visually. Lavender works to transfer black pigment to lavender color and dilute red color to a pale yellow color, that is where Isabel color come from. If without the pale yellow, it would be a lavender, not Isabel

* barring gene is sex-linked dominant gene. Before going into more details about sex-linked genes (bantam, silver, chocolate, barring), we should understand that a hen has 1 Z chromosome and 1 W chromosome whereas a rooster has 2 Z chromosomes. A hen determines the sex of the chicks as she can only pass either 1 Z along with all the sex-linked gene attached to the Z to her son or pass W to the chicks (a female). This means a hen can only pass the sexlinked gene to her son, not the daughter. Now we can easily understand how barring will work in terms of creating autosex chicks.

Any corrections are welcome