Livestock guardian dogs

[centrarchid]

It's just like the way you don't have to teach a HUNTING dog to "point" or a HERDING dog to "herd"

This business of dogs bred to a specific purpose is recent. Many years ago most dogs of intermediate size where associated with agriculture and provided many services in addition to hunting and keeping your feet warm at night. Those dogs are now collectively known as pariah dogs (mutts to the ill-informed). Some of those services included defense of home and stock (including poultry for dogs in Asia, Europe and Indian subcontinent) where training was required. This was reality for just about 10,000 years which predates animal herding by a couple thousand years. Standard LGD's were derived from such dogs, not directly from wolves. My pointers have general farm use in their recent background which is retained to varying degrees (according to individual dog) that can be developed. That behavioral flexibility makes for increased rate of success when working on a function for which dogs where not developed specifically for.

 

[Michael Apple]

It's just like the way you don't have to teach a HUNTING dog to "point" or a HERDING dog to "herd"

Predatory instincts are controlled by the trainer for his/her benefit. Dogs in the category of "herding breeds" are taught to "herd" by controlling predatory instincts, otherwise you'd have injured/dead livestock.

Let's just stick to discussing this TOPIC
If you want to talk about ME, start a new thread

Change of heart compared to other threads, lol. Don't flatter yourself.

 

[Bear Foot Farm]

with their use being recorded as early as 150 BCE inRome.[5]

That's hardly "recent"

 

[Bear Foot Farm]

Quote: They dont need to be "taught" to herd.
They only need to be taught of OBEY COMMANDS

If your premise was correct, ANY breed could be taught to herd as well as any other breed, when that is simply not how things work

 

[Michael Apple]

They dont need to be "taught" to herd.
They only need to be taught of OBEY COMMANDS

Chasing other animals is not herding. Herding is only possible by teaching obedience.

If your premise was correct, ANY breed could be taught to herd as well as any other breed, when that is simply not how things work

The premise is correct. Again, you just prefer to argue with facts. Those breeds used for herding have stronger instincts, in addition to intelligence, desired by people who want to use them for that specific job. That's why they were given the title, Herding Breeds.

 

[centrarchid]

No, it's not "recent" at all, and to even suggest that shows you have no intention of having a serious, factual discussion

That's hardly "recent"

Bear you are showing indications of being temporally challenged. 10,000 years ago is a lot further back in time than 2,000 so latter is recent. The breeding to a narrow use of many other dogs with exception of some sight hounds has been consistent for only the last few hundred years at most. I have been doing research on this and it has not been restricted to that put forward by fanciers of standard LGD breeds. The subject of dog breed development is too fascinating for that.

What I am getting as a take home point from you is that an LGD is only such if its parents were and thus recognizing LGD status is limited to form. In contrast I put function ahead of form where if a dog guards livestock (in this case poultry), then it is a poultry guarding dog. Your logic would recognize an Anitolian kept in an apartment by family without livestock as an LGD while I would call it a companion or simply a guard dog.

 

[Bear Foot Farm]

Bear you are showing indications of being temporally challenged. 10,000 years ago is a lot further back in time than 2,000 so latter is recent. The breeding to a narrow use of many other dogs with exception of some sight hounds has been consistent for only the last few hundred years at most.

I have been doing research on this and it has not been restricted to that put forward by fanciers of standard LGD breeds.

The subject of dog breed development is too fascinating for that.

What I am getting as a take home point from you is that an LGD is only such if its parents were and thus recognizing LGD status is limited to form. In contrast I put function ahead of form where if a dog guards livestock (in this case poultry), then it is a poultry guarding dog. Your logic would recognize an Anitolian kept in an apartment by family without livestock as an LGD while I would call it a companion or simply a guard dog.

LOL
Now you want to play word games, while at the same time ignoring the fact that the words "Livestock Guardian Dogs" have a SPECIFIC meaning in terms of the breeds.

One more time, CALLING your GSP a "LGD" doesn't mean its so.
Unless they are born with the INSTINCTS, it's not the same, and they don't get the title

But since you say you've done the research, please SHOW me some links that say ANY breed can be, or is RECOGNIZED as a true Livestock Guardian Dog.

I suspect you won't even make an attempt

 

[centrarchid]

I suspect you won't even make an attempt

I will not make an attempt when only available information to challenge it is put forth by fanciers that do not have direct access to sources of information. If a historian from Turkey or the Caucus region were to step in I would give that a great deal more credibility. My interest has been in development of dogs as a whole. Many lines have been through periods of selection for one purpose then re-tasked for another which has occurred repeatedly. Many breeds are also results of crosses followed by lots of selective breeding which can also be detrimental. Other detrimental factors which almost certainly are at play with standard LGD's in this country has genetic bottlenecking and inbreeding without proper selection.



The recognition starts here that other dog breeds can be used for poultry guarding. It is time to drop the livestock (ruminant) only concept. When that it done it shall become apparent that current LGD's may not be as good as what could be developed through selection for performance with poultry. Allowing your take to prevail will obstruct making improvements. That would be very sad, especially if you do not employ dogs yourself with respect to poultry but rather invest all your efforts against those that are making an constructive effort.


From this point forward I will not use the term livestock guarding dog (LGD) with respect to my dogs in their current capacity with poultry. I will use the term poultry guarding dog (PGD). If you fail to recognize the utility of dogs for such a purpose, then I suggest you find another type of dope to smoke so you can actually see what is before you.

 

[medfaxx]

I have a Great Pyrenees, Bubba - 1 y.o., and a Kangal, Zeke, 6 months old. Bubba is leaps and bounds doing his job and more. He is on constant patrol, especially at night, and is also large enough to intimidate coyotes. I would add that it's important to start with a puppy that can learn the birds are his "family" and when young play with birds around puppy including letting chicks walk on the puppy.

 

[SunnySkies]

My dogs are going to earn their keep...the other night, I could hear them going up and down the fenceline bordering the woods, barking a very aggressive bark. Something was out there, and even though they are not quite 6 months old, they were defending their property. It apparently thought better of venturing out of the woods and went away, as the dogs settled down around midnight and didn't make another sound until morning.

A couple nights before that, one of the dumb roosters decided he was going to camp out and not go in the coop at dark. When I grabbed him, he squawked very loudly. The dogs boiled around the corner of the house (they hang out on the deck where they can see out over the back pastures and most of the coops), screaming for blood and only laid off when they realized it was me and not something killing the rooster.

And...I recently learned we have coyotes in our immediate area. I'm so glad I got two dogs...I was only going to get one. But now, with two GPs, I feel better about my stock being safe knowing we have a bold pack of coyotes out there, better about my dogs' safety as a team, and better knowing I have very large dogs bred to handle such predators. I hope they never have to though.