Making New Dog Breeds

[SunAngel]

The whole 'breed' thing confuses me anyways.

Isn't every recognized breed of anything a mixture or descendant of two something elses?

I know I have read about certain chickens being 'created' by some guy way back when breeding his two whatevers together.

 

[SunAngel]

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[patandchickens]

Quote:
Obviously everything started somewhere

.... but the point of a breed (well ok in anything EXCEPT poultry shows

) is that two individuals of that breed will produce offspring that look pretty much like themselves.

Like, if you cross a Percheron horse and another Percheron horse, you will get something that looks like a Percheron horse, you know? You can breed any of 'em together and get basically the same thing. Sure, there will be individual variation, but they will all be largeish heavy horses with a particular type of neck set and hindquarters and relatively heavily boned legs and big hooves.

Same if you cross any two Arab horses.

If you put a Percheron stallion to an Arab mare, or vice versa, what will you get? It is a bit less reliable than the purebred breedings, but still *fairly* predictable -- you get a somewhat shorter animal, heavy in the body but rather light-boned legs, feet usually much smaller than a Percheron's, shorter neck, often a smaller head and Araby ears and tail.

But what happens if you decide to treat this cross as if it is a breed? You put a, what would you call it, Perchab? Araberon? stallion to an Araberon mare, and what do you get? Who the heck knows. (I pick this particular cross to describe btw b/c I've seen a fair number of the F1s and F2s). Sometimes you get something not too different from an Arab - bit heavier bodied, might be mistaken for a morgan, but still, nobody would guess there was draft blood there. Other times you get something that anyone would think was a Percheron. Most of the time you get odd intermediates. I've seen one that looked like a 16.1 hh shetland pony, THelwell-style; another that resembled a 55 gal drum on toothpick legs; two that could have been mistaken for nontrendily-bred Quarter horses; and one whose owner used to go around telling everyone it was an imported Irish hunter.

Some of these were useful horses, but as you can see, it would make NO sense to call these "Perchabs" or "Araberons" or whatever a BREED, since they do not breed true.

Of course if someone worked with the offspring of the initial cross for long enough -- like, many many generations -- the gene pool would get sorted out and remixed and selected and so forth, til you DID have a product that bred true. But that takes a long, long time.

I'm absolutely not saying breeds are better than mutts; but they *are* in this respect *different*.


Pat

 

[SunAngel]

Ahhh, okie dokie, point taken

 

[Cara]

Quote:
If one of your considerations when buying a dog is how much you're going to lose when you get sick of it and give it away, you shouldn't be buying ANY dog, mutt or otherwise, in the first place. Collies shed, the long coat is usually a giveaway. They don't suddenly wake up one morning and decide they're going to.

This is the reason pounds and shelters are so full; people are too self-absorbed. They want what they want because they like the way it looks, with no consideration to the purpose of the breed. They're suprised when their pointer or Border Collie needs 'too much' exercise; funny that, for a breed intended to work all day. Or their St Bernard has grown too big. It doesn't just apply to purebred dogs from breeders; often those adopting from pounds or shelters will fall in love with a dog on sight with no knowledge of its requirements. They expect the dog to fit into their lifestyle without a hitch, and with no consideration for the dog's needs, and when it doesn't do so they dispose of it.

Many shelters do have strict adoption guidelines, mostly created to make people think about the commitment of owning a dog before jumping in with both feet. If someone has to have a dog, and has to have it right now or will go elsewhere, they're obviously not that committed to that one particular dog. Sometimes they do seem to be shooting themselves in the foot, but equally they would be if they gave any dog to the first person that came along, only for it to return in worse condition or pregnant a few months later.

Thankfully responsible breeders are just as strict about who they will allow to buy a puppy from them. They want to be sure that the buyer understands what they are taking on, for both the dog and the owner's sake, and they don't want to see a dog they have lovingly raised thrown in the gutter. Equally responsible breeding involves decades of hard work, and they don't want to see that thrown away.

It is the backyard breeders and puppy mills that profit from the need for instant gratification. Buying a dog from a backyard breeder or puppy mill is not saving it, or any others, from dying in a pound. Instead it creates a demand, and encourages more irresponsible breeding. If a backyard breeder can easily sell a litter of mutts, they're inclined to breed more. If they're stuck with them on their feed bill, they will think again. It's just the same as 'rescuing' an animal from a pet store; all you're doing is making way for the next one, and lining some idiot's pocket. If people would just think, and think seriously before buying any dog, the world would be a lot better place for all dogs.

 

[bwebb7]

O.K. I hate the idea of making new dog breeds!
First of all they are cute! any of them but, when the cute wears off who's gonna take care of them?
Its easy to poopoo AKC and such but they have reg's in place for reasons-people are ruled by$$$ too often.
AKC doesn't limit breedings-Parent clubs do-
ie. MCOA or "Mastiff Clubs of America"-they have an ethics committee and have determined things like a grump would have to be over 2 yo before she is bred, she can only be bred once in a calendar year and be bred to a dog that is at least 2 yo. A breeder is only allowed 3 litters per calendar year and then they moniter it too!
But with this parent club comes "Rescue" and thats what happens to unwanted pets. There are responsible people that make it their business that every dog bred has puppies that are properly cared for. of course not all Mastiff breeders are ethical but there are many different mastiff rescues that clean up their messes too.

When you start with designer dogs it is said that some of the health issues of a certain breed are dilute by crossing with another-
but they are just crossing another mix of health issues with it.
AKC supports research for genetic testing so these inherent problems can be bred out of a breed.
Do designer dog breeders give us anything like that? no! They take and take- they take your money and everyones resources for the care of unwanted pets.
I did not realize until I started to respond just how much I care about this!
Sorry for my running on...
P.S. I do not breed- I do have a Male Mastiff that I am currantly showing-when he finishes (gets his championship) I will still have a lot of health testing to do -hips, elbows, patellas, vonwildebrands dz, thyroid, cystinuria & cardiac.
Unless he comes thru it all "good" he won't ever be bred! However should he pass all his tests I would look for a suitable "tested" grump to cross with.
At which I would be comfortable asking $2500 for a puppy!
Keep in mind to get his championship I paid an average of $30 per class-and if he won, I paid another $28 for the picture proof! I had to drive us to the show and pay for the motel too. He would need 15 points to get a championship, and 2 Majors-having been determined to be "closer to the standard" than at least 8 other dogs his age and sex. It can be very difficult to build a major at shows so you have to go to a lot of shows to get a major.

By the time the grump whelps (many times by c-sec) she has been ultrasounded and/or xrayed and most likely will need a lot of help raising her babies and if she doesn't take care of them (which happens 1/2 the time)then vet visits and baby formula and every hour feedings and regulating temps and blah blah..

I think if you've ever really assisted with the whelping and rearing of a litter of puppies like that , $2500 is a fair price-you will know the chances of hip dysplasia (which is devastating and expensive to manage) and a lot of other things that can be costly and painful
WHEW!
Bridget

 

[rooster0209]

Very well stated Cara

Dogs and cats are not disposable. Too many people get a dog or cat (either free, or purchase) with no regard to the commitment of owning one. It is 'no big deal' to get-rid-of or give-away that dog/cat and get another.

I have adopted two of my 3 dogs (one was a gift 13yrs ago). Freddie was an accidental litter between black lab & border collie. The people who took the free pup were discouraged to find the dog is gun shy, so after a fewl weeks of trying to break him of htat, he was dumped at the shelter at 12wks old. He spent a year and half there waiting for the right home. Homeless black lab crosses are litterly in the hundreds around here. The 3rd addition to my home was a 6yr old purebred doxie, who was just dropped off at the shelter because "no one had time for her anymore" At 6yrs old, she found herslelf going to her 3rd home....mine. It will be her last home.

The adoption process is thorough for all kinds of reasons.

 

[SunAngel]

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[monarc23]

I want to wave my hand in the air about one thing....even pure bred breeders (even AKC breeders) arent all good.

I paid 275 for my AKC male. He's a buff merle, so already a non-showable color. The breeder I got him off of was selling him as a roan (as with his other siblings who were merle....which if you breed merle to merle you can get genetic deformities in the puppies or even death). When I clued her in that her puppies were merle but that I still wanted one she finnally looked into it and realized her dogs were merle not roan. So that was nice....other than my dog not being showable (i didnt care wasnt planning on showing him, i thougth he was adorable and i wanted to give him a home with me as I was looking for a cocker spaniel). However, as he matured, it became apparent that he has a thing called "roach back" where his spine CURVEs dramatically downward, so its' very challenging for him to climb stairs, and he will most/probably need to have surgery when he's older I am sure. Not only that, some of his siblings have come up with cherry eye. Thankfully he hasn't yet.

NOw....this breeder had all the paperwork, took her dogs to the vets, took the puuppies to the vets they had ALL their shots all their wormings...they lived the good life at her house....

HOWEVER.....she should NOT be breeding her dogs...they are not quality AKC dogs....they have genetic problems (but sweet temperments).

That's what im getting at.... it's not only designer breeders that should be looked down on, it's also those who care as well, but aren't caring enough. I was actually considering breeding my male for more merle puppies, but after thinking long and hard about it and realizing how severe his roach back is.....it's just not right! He will be neutered in the summer of 09. He's my baby doll and I wouldnt erase the past when I got him for anything.....but he was born ina life where he can't even function like a normal young dog.

As a pup i took his laziness of just being a sleepy puppy, when i realized that what i was actually witnessing was having a funky back equaled being tired easier because of using more effort to play. He runs in slow motion, and can collapse sometimes going up steps. No he doesnt have plattella issue, i checked and so did my vet, and no he doesnt have HD. It's roach back.

Anywho..... it's not only BYB, and designer breeders that's the problem, it's also registered, licensed breeders who are bad. Atleast here in PA, dogs can live thier lives in cages, and nothing is done about it, it's allowed. Last time i checked Dogs werent hamsters.

Also, the shelters here in PA SUCK! They are rediculous!

And i am in no way shape or form EVER taking one of my beloved dogs there to look at a potential pet....kennel cough and everything run rampant in there. Their rules are rediculous and MANY walk out of PA shelters fully wanting a pet but not being allowed for stupid reasons. LOVE, and money to atleast get by on vet bills is good enough IMO.

BTW>..ANYONE in PA or MD, WV, or OH, that's willing to travel far to go to a vet office that actually has reasonable prices. Please look into ebensburg veterinary hospital. GREAT vets, extreemly reasonable prices. I get all my pets altered there, and any emergencies during their opened hours. People travel from around the state and neighboring states just to go there. hence it's ALWAYS booked, BUT if you have a kitten or a puppy that will need altered in 6 months, give htem a call and book an appt! You wont be sorry!

 

[Wifezilla]

For some people, it's alllllll about the money when you come down to it. I have know very responsible backyard breeders and very irresponsible ACK breeders. I have also known the reverse. Some of the ACK breeders trash back yard breeders because they see them as competition. There is not "higher moral calling" involved.

As for my pets...all but one has been free. I paid $6 for my buff duck. Everyone else was either a stray or a freebee. You don't have to pay out the nose to get a good pet. Nor is charging people out the wazoo a guarantee your pet is going to have a good home.

My oldest free cat is very spoiled and 19. We found her as a kitten in a snow storm. I know some people who paid $600 for one dog and $1000 for another. They were given away within a year because they were too much trouble.